# How America might have avoided - part of - the current wave of Anti-Americanism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569 "2007-08-31T02:05:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/1 "2007-08-31T02:05:47Z")
[This](http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/fall-from-grace-belies-genteel-past/2007/08/30/1188067275086.html?page=2) is how America handled a barbaric opponent over 200 years ago (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > During America’s Revolutionary War, when the very existence of the US was in the balance, the British and German armies arrayed against the Americans were guilty of all manner of depredation. They killed and raped American women and children; they plundered ruthlessly the towns and villages they passed through; they refused to accept some American surrenders and butchered thousands of men who had thrown down their weapons and waved white flags - men they should have taken as prisoners of war. > > The response of their commanding general, George Washington? He did not lash out in anger and vengefulness. He did not meet their barbarism with more barbarism. He did not kill and rape in turn (the armies in that time all travelled with a train of women). He did not set up Guantanamos or Abu Ghraibs or authorise secret kidnapping and torture of enemy suspects, a practice which in today’s America goes under the euphemism of “extraordinary rendition.” > > Washington issued orders: “It is expected that humanity and tenderness to women and children will distinguish brave Americans, contending for liberty, from infamous mercenary ravagers.” > > He issued strict orders for the care of enemy prisoners of war. “The officers and men should be separated. I wish the former may be well treated, and that the latter may have such principles instilled in them during their confinement, that when they return, they may open the eyes of their countrymen.” > > They were so well treated that most of the German mercenaries decided to stay in America, settling there after the war. > > The historian David Hackett Fischer writes of Washington and his officers that “the esteem of others was important to them mainly because **they believed that victory would come only if they deserved to win. Even in the most urgent moments of war, these men were concerned about ethical questions in the revolution.** ” > > This is the American leadership the world craves, and the American leadership the world would be proud to follow. It is the key to the defeat of anti-Americanism. _That’s_ how to win hearts and minds; be better than the evil you are fighting, not excuse your own descent into barbaric practices by saying “well they’re worse”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/2 "2007-08-31T02:08:12Z")
Why does George Washington hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Khadro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Khadro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadro)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/3 "2007-08-31T02:16:06Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Why does George Washington hate America? [/QUOTE] He never used to. He’s just jumped on the bandwagon so the other countries think he’s cool. When he’s alone in his bedroom, he still loves you. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/4 "2007-08-31T02:37:52Z")
Wait, so you’re telling me The Patriot was actually a good representation of British soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/5 "2007-08-31T02:38:57Z")
When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. ---
**Author:** ![Montgomery0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Montgomery0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montgomery0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/6 "2007-08-31T02:53:41Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t that the summer where that kid did this fancy pose and kicked you in the face and you lost the All Valley Karate Tournament? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/7 "2007-08-31T03:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] [This](http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/fall-from-grace-belies-genteel-past/2007/08/30/1188067275086.html?page=2) is how America handled a barbaric opponent over 200 years ago (my emphasis):_That’s_ how to win hearts and minds; be better than the evil you are fighting, not excuse your own descent into barbaric practices by saying “well they’re worse”. [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard of this before . . . do you have a cite for the atrocities you describe in the American Revolutionary War? For Washington’s orders? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/8 "2007-08-31T03:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. [/QUOTE] Melodramatic rhetoric, nothing more. Otherwise, the instructor would have killed all of you during training, or you would have killed each other. It would ( and did ) make a good Monty Python sketch, but a bad training method. “No mercy” is a stupid policy; the best method imaginable of encouraging the enemy to literally fight to the last using any means whatsoever. And a very good way of encouraging the world to support them instead of you. And as I’ve said in the past, mercy is for the strong, not the weak; the strong can afford to be merciful. And it tends to make them stronger, while mercilessness tends to undercut you. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/9 "2007-08-31T03:25:27Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] “No mercy” is a stupid policy; the best method imaginable of encouraging the enemy to literally fight to the last using any means whatsoever. [/QUOTE] Indeed… one of the reasons why the Japanese fought so hard in the Pacific is that they didn’t to be shown mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/10 "2007-08-31T03:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=Montgomery0] Wasn’t that the summer where that kid did this fancy pose and kicked you in the face and you lost the All Valley Karate Tournament? [/QUOTE] A better example my be what I learned later from the Holy Book. Ezechiel 25 : 17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee. I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/11 "2007-08-31T03:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. [/QUOTE] I think George Washington has been called out! I’ll hold his teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/12 "2007-08-31T05:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. [/QUOTE] And that is precisely the problem. The easy attitude, the one that seems straightforward, turns out to be the most damaging one to oneself. As your mythology has it, the narrow difficult path turns out to be the right one, the easy straight path turns out to go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/13 "2007-08-31T05:12:35Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I’ve never heard of this before . . . do you have a cite for the atrocities you describe in the American Revolutionary War? For Washington’s orders? [/QUOTE] Was it unclear I was posting an article verbatim? I apologise if so. To the best of my knowledge I’m not required to verify every statement in it in order to have a useful debate on the topic it raises. Feel free to contact Peter Hartcher of the Sydney Morning Herald to question his attribution if you like. newsdesk@smh.com.au or 011 61 2 9282 2833 . Your afternoons or evenings would be the best time. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/14 "2007-08-31T05:15:15Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] A better example my be what I learned later from the Holy Book. Ezechiel 25 : 17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee. I rest my case. [/QUOTE] I wake your somnolent case back up again: ``` "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV) "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:27-31. NIV) ``` ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/15 "2007-08-31T06:22:16Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] I wake your somnolent case back up again: ``` "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV) "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:27-31. NIV) ``` [/QUOTE] **Shagnasty’s** is a OT type of guy. That hippy Christ crap is for pussies. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/16 "2007-08-31T08:26:57Z")
Shagnasty is having a little bit of fun quoting from movies. We’ve already got the No Mercy! one covered. That second one is a bastardization from Pulp Fiction. The real passage can be read [here](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:38-44&version=9;). Incidentally, my first martial arts instructor told us to always leave opponents an “out” so that they didn’t go berserk. He called it “cornered-rat syndrome,” referring to the folk wisdom that even a rat — which would much rather run than fight — will fight if backed into a corner with no way to escape. Not that this was out of bleeding-heart sensitivity or anything. It was mostly for practical reasons, though morality was a topic of discussion. And for what it’s worth, I agree with the principles expressed by author of the article. You teach, and lead, by example. You don’t have to resort to the tactics of your opponents if you can out-think and out-fight them. From your enemy’s point of view, there’s no point in surrendering if they know that they’re better off dead than being a prisoner. There’s also nothing that turns people against you faster and more permanently than by victimizing their women and children, which has apparently happened more than a few times in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/17 "2007-08-31T08:33:12Z")
George Washington? I heard he once held an opponent’s wife’s hand in a jar of acid at a party. Okay, seriously, George Washington does have some issues. When several Indian tribes sided with the British during the Revolution, Washington ordered punitive expeditions against their villages and specifically ordered his soldiers to burn everything they found including winter shelter and food supplies. Here’s his actual written orders to the expedition’s commander: > [@](#): > > The Expedition you are appointed to command is to be directed against the hostile tribes of the Six Nations of Indians, with their associates and adherents. The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements, and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more. > > I would recommend, that some post in the center of the Indian Country, should be occupied with all expedition, with a sufficient quantity of provisions whence parties should be detached to lay waste all the settlements around, with instructions to do it in the most effectual manner, that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed. > > But you will not by any means listen to any overture of peace before the total ruinment of their settlements is effected. Our future security will be in their inability to injure us and in the terror with which the severity of the chastisement they receive will inspire them. Over forty villages were destroyed. The Iroquois gave Washington the nickname “Caunotaucarius” - town burner. So Washington could be plenty ruthless when it served him. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/18 "2007-08-31T09:38:49Z")
Colonel Tim Collins gave the following speech to UK troops in Iraq, in March 2003… it seems to capture some of the sentiment the OP was alluding to. > [@](#): > > We go to liberate, not to conquer. > We will not fly our flags in their country > We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. > Show respect for them. > > There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. > Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. > As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. > Wipe them out if that is what they choose. > But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. > > Iraq is steeped in history. > It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. > Tread lightly there. > > You will see things that no man could pay to see > – and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. > You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. > > Don’t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. > Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. > > If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. > Allow them dignity in death. > Bury them properly and mark their graves. > > It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. > But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. > We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. > There will be no time for sorrow. > > The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. > There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. > He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. > As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. > > It is a big step to take another human life. > It is not to be done lightly. > I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. > I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. > > If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. > The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. > > If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. > You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest – for your deeds will follow you down through history. > We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation. > > _(On Saddam’s chemical and biological weapons.)_ > > It is not a question of if, it’s a question of when. > We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. > If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack. > > As for ourselves, let’s bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. > > Our business now is north. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/19 "2007-08-31T14:46:14Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] When I was a kid, I took a few karate lessons. The main thing that I got out of it was: “We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.” It still seems pretty straightforward to me. [/QUOTE] Better you should have studied [aikido.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido) A Unitarian minister once told me, when he took an aikido class, the first thing the _sensei_ said to the students was: “If you ever have to use what I am about to teach you, you have already made at least one mistake.” ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/20 "2007-08-31T15:27:59Z")
I’d say not have elected Bush in 2000, but then somebody would reply that we didn’t. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569.md?page=2)