# How America might have avoided - part of - the current wave of Anti-Americanism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569 "2007-08-31T02:05:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/21 "2007-08-31T19:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sleel] Shagnasty is having a little bit of fun quoting from movies. We’ve already got the No Mercy! one covered. That second one is a bastardization from Pulp Fiction. The real passage can be read [here](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:38-44&version=9;). [/QUOTE] In what sense is that the real passage? It’s not Ezekiel 25:17 and it’s not very similar to the Jules Winfield speech, so what does it have to do with it? For the record, the actual wording of Ezekiel 25:17 is “And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them”. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/22 "2007-08-31T20:11:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sleel] Incidentally, my first martial arts instructor told us to always leave opponents an “out” so that they didn’t go berserk. He called it “cornered-rat syndrome,” referring to the folk wisdom that even a rat — which would much rather run than fight — will fight if backed into a corner with no way to escape. Not that this was out of bleeding-heart sensitivity or anything. It was mostly for practical reasons, though morality was a topic of discussion. [/QUOTE] If you surround the enemy, leave an outlet; do not press an enemy that is cornered. These are the principles of warfare. - Sun Tzu, _The Art of War_ ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/23 "2007-08-31T20:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] Was it unclear I was posting an article verbatim? I apologise if so. To the best of my knowledge I’m not required to verify every statement in it in order to have a useful debate on the topic it raises. [/quote] Of course you are not required to verify every statement you make or quote. And other posters are not required to believe you. I did a few web searches and found nothing to corroborate Hartcher’s claims about atrocities in the Revolutionary War and Washington’s response. I have a feeling that he is BSing. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/24 "2007-08-31T20:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Of course you are not required to verify every statement you make or quote. And other posters are not required to believe you. I did a few web searches and found nothing to corroborate Hartcher’s claims about atrocities in the Revolutionary War and Washington’s response. I have a feeling that he is BSing. [/QUOTE] What I mean is, I would have thought that I would have heard about this in my American History class, or on Schoolhouse Rock, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/25 "2007-08-31T21:22:35Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] Colonel Tim Collins gave the following speech to UK troops in Iraq, in March 2003… [/QUOTE] THAT man I’d follow into Hell, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/26 "2007-08-31T22:24:42Z")
In case anyone is curious, I found a couple Wikipedia articles about British treatment of American POW’s during the Revolutionary War: > **[Prisoners of war in the American Revolutionary War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)** > > During the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), management and treatment of prisoners of war (POWs) were very different from the standards of modern warfare. Modern standards, as outlined in the Geneva Conventions of later centuries, assume that captives will be held and cared for by their captors. One primary difference in the 18th century was that care and supplies for captives were expected to be provided by their own combatants or private resources. King George III of Great Britain had d... > **[HMS Jersey (1736)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jersey_%28British_prison_ship%29)** > > HMS Jersey was a 60-gun fourth rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, built to the 1733 proposals of the 1719 Establishment of dimensions at Plymouth Dockyard, and launched on 14 June 1736. She saw action in the War of Jenkins' Ear and the Seven Years' War, before being converted to a hospital ship in 1771. In 1780 she was converted again, this time to a prison ship, and was used by the British during the American Revolutionary War. Jersey was built in 1736 during a time of peace in Britain. ... So it seems that a lot of American prisoners died of “intentional neglect.” It still seems like a stretch that thousands of Americans were slaughtered after having surrendered. > [@](#): > > They were so well treated that most of the German mercenaries decided to stay in America, settling there after the war. This doesn’t seem to be true: > [@](#): > > 17,313 Hessians returned to their homelands after the war ended in 1783. Of the 12,526 who did not return, about 7,700 had died: some 1,200 were killed in action and 6,354 died from illness or accidents. Approximately 5,000 Hessians settled in North America, both in the United States and Canada, some because their commanders refused to take them back to Germany because they were criminals or physically unfit. Most of them married and settled amongst the population of the newly-formed United States. Many of them became farmers or craftsmen. The number of their direct descendants living in the U.S. and Canada today is still debated. > [@](#): > > Washington issued orders: “It is expected that humanity and tenderness to women and children will distinguish brave Americans, contending for liberty, from infamous mercenary ravagers.” I would guess that the British generals also issued orders against rape, pillaging, etc. And I would guess that many soldiers on both sides ignored those orders. ---
**Author:** ![Hobohob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Hobohob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobohob)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/27 "2007-08-31T22:31:27Z")
The main reason we are hated more than other European countries is that we pushed them out for not supporting the war, and again after the “win” when we refused to let them help with policing and rebuilding, which they said they wanted in on. And of course we also resisted Russian influence near the oil lines, Chinese trade, Indian logistical support … If we had not tried to go it alone, even pushing Brit efforts aside to stay in control, we would not be the hated nation. Instead of occupiers, we would be running an international trust territory, like those after WWII, which we could point to. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/28 "2007-09-01T03:42:35Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] In what sense is that the real passage? It’s not Ezekiel 25:17 and it’s not very similar to the Jules Winfield speech, so what does it have to do with it? For the record, the actual wording of Ezekiel 25:17 is “And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them”. [/QUOTE] Gah, wrong URL in the buffer when I pasted. Anyway, the passage from Pulp Fiction is false. The only part of it that matches up with what’s actually at Ezekiel 25:17 is the last sentence, and even that has made-up stuff inserted in it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/29 "2007-09-01T04:39:01Z")
I haven’t seen _Pulp Fiction_ but I’ve heard about it. Were the insertions aptly placed “motherfucks,” as in: > [@](#): > > And I will execute great motherfucking vengeance upon the motherfuckers with furious motherfuckin’ rebukes; and the motherfuckers shall know that I am the motherfuckin’ LORD, when I shall lay my motherfuckin’ vengeance upon the motherfuckers. Not that I think that’s in the Bible, but the OT God seems like he talks like Samuel L Jackson. The motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/30 "2007-09-01T06:05:37Z")
Wait, where was the “No mercy!” quote from? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/31 "2007-09-01T06:27:31Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Wait, where was the “No mercy!” quote from? [/QUOTE] The Karate Kid of course. COBRA KAI!!! Marc ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/32 "2007-09-01T12:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] COBRA KAI!!! [/QUOTE] Never dies! ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/33 "2007-09-01T15:49:15Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Of course you are not required to verify every statement you make or quote. And other posters are not required to believe you. I did a few web searches and found nothing to corroborate Hartcher’s claims about atrocities in the Revolutionary War and Washington’s response. I have a feeling that he is BSing. [/QUOTE] I have no cite but the atrocities portrayed in The Patriot were taken from real life Nazi atrocities in WW2 Europe . Apparently the Revolutionary war was very well documented and The Patriot was about as accurate as BraveHeart,i.e. not at all. I read all this in Brit.newspapers when the film came out. I am starting to wonder wether Mel Gibson has some sort of grudge against the Brits. Its a possibility as theres none so Irish as the “Plastic Paddies”, as the genuine articles from Ireland call them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/34 "2007-09-01T16:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] [This](http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/fall-from-grace-belies-genteel-past/2007/08/30/1188067275086.html?page=2) is how America handled a barbaric opponent over 200 years ago (my emphasis):_That’s_ how to win hearts and minds; be better than the evil you are fighting, not excuse your own descent into barbaric practices by saying “well they’re worse”. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > 1777 Oct 18 – The surrender of General John Burgoyne to General Gates at Saratoga NY made prisoners of war out of 2,400 Hessian, 800 Canadian, and 2,600 British soldiers. Generals Gates and Burgoyne agreed to surrender terms (“Convention of Saratoga”) which stated that these prisoners were to be marched to Boston and then transported to Great Britain with the agreement that they would not be sent to fight in America again. > > The prisoners were marched to Boston and held in camps near that city (in Rutland MA). However, the Continental Congress was concerned that releasing these troops would allow them to occupy defensive posts in England and free Great Britain to send an equivalent number of troops back here to fight the U.S. > > - > - > - > > Congress refused to honor the Convention of Saratoga and released only Gen. Burgoyne and several other staff officers. > > - > - > - > > After six years of imprisonment in the U.S. most of the Convention Army prisoners returned home, but a few remained in the U.S. [http://www.rsar.org/military/convarmy.htm](http://www.rsar.org/military/convarmy.htm) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/35 "2007-09-01T17:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] How America might have avoided - part of - the current wave of Anti-Americanism? [/QUOTE] Can you clarify the question? Do you mean abroad or within the left wing of the democratic party? [QUOTE=Askance] _That’s_ how to win hearts and minds; be better than the evil you are fighting, not excuse your own descent into barbaric practices by saying “well they’re worse”. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I see your point. Are you claiming that our conduct in the war on terror is **worse** than that of Al Qaeda or other Iraqi insurgent groups? If so, please offer a cite to all those things we’ve done that are\*\* worse\*\* than blowing up buildings with thousands of innocents in them, setting bombs off in markets and schools intentionally killing thousands of women and children, and beheading people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/36 "2007-09-01T21:33:12Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I’m not sure I see your point. Are you claiming that our conduct in the war on terror is **worse** than that of Al Qaeda or other Iraqi insurgent groups? If so, please offer a cite to all those things we’ve done that are\*\* worse\*\* than blowing up buildings with thousands of innocents in them, setting bombs off in markets and schools intentionally killing thousands of women and children, and beheading people. [/QUOTE] Devastating an entire country come to mind, as does kidnapping and torture, and various other atrocities. We have done far more harm than Al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/37 "2007-09-01T21:37:23Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] I am starting to wonder wether Mel Gibson has some sort of grudge against the Brits. Its a possibility as theres none so Irish as the “Plastic Paddies”, as the genuine articles from Ireland call them. [/QUOTE] Mel Gibson grew up in Australia, not Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/38 "2007-09-01T21:57:21Z")
Mel Gibson is just an actor, not a sociologist, and actors do not need great intellects, nor any soirt of sense of responsibility to the truth, in fact that would get in the way. Its just an extension of having a baddy that speaks a common language whose accent is differant enough not to be American. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/39 "2007-09-01T21:58:42Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Devastating an entire country come to mind, as does kidnapping and torture, and various other atrocities. We have done far more harm than Al Qaeda. [/QUOTE] Would you rather be A) sent to Abu Graib and be humiliated by some low-lifes who then got punished B) kidnapped and sent to Gitmo, where you’d still even be able to practice your religion C) kidnapped and beheaded D) have your wife, mother and children blown up by a suicide bomber as they went to the market I’ll take one of the first two. But since you evidenlty view them, by virtue of who is commiting the act, worse than the latter two, I’ll leave you to enjoy the relief and righteousness you’ll feel choosing C or D. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569/40 "2007-09-01T22:00:12Z")
Of course, this representation of other English speakers by Hollywood as villains and stealing honourable history from others, such as the capture of codebreaking materials from German subs is also a good enough reason for others to hold the American media in pretty low regard. Yup, way to go Hollywood, glorify America and denigrate your allies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-might-have-avoided-part-of-the-current-wave-of-anti-americanism/417569.md?page=3)