# How America treats the poor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598 "2013-09-11T20:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/81 "2013-09-12T19:05:12Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > If they’re in school, they’re probably eligible for free breakfast and lunch under most programs, so this is a bit disingenuous. Given that those programs are ALSO under attack, it’s hard to use their existence as evidence that other programs aren’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/82 "2013-09-12T19:08:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The fact that the US is the only Western Advanced country that has no safety net is its shame (second only to its attack on the underclass via incarceration- did you know that a quarter of the world’s prisoners are in US Jails). This is such a moral issue- all religions suggest that the sick, poor and impaired should be treated well. A choice to not do so speaks to the moral worth of a nation. Yeah - I surely don’t know the answer to this very difficult set of questions, but I often wonder if Americans who oppose most “safety net” programs feel the rest of the developed world is wrong. And I wonder why they would feel that way Because from my point of view, there are a heck of a lot of damaged/impaired/uncompetive individuals out there, and our current set-up doesn’t seem to be dealing w/ them especially well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/83 "2013-09-12T19:12:22Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah - I surely don’t know the answer to this very difficult set of questions, but I often wonder if Americans who oppose most “safety net” programs feel the rest of the developed world is wrong. And I wonder why they would feel that way Because from my point of view, there are a heck of a lot of damaged/impaired/uncompetive individuals out there, and our current set-up doesn’t seem to be dealing w/ them especially well. I think it runs up against Just World theories, like so many other things. If you believe people get what’s coming to them then all of the poor are essentially undeserving of help. Maybe there can be strata of “more undeserving” and “less undeserving” but if you think people are poor because they are bad/stupid/lazy then anything you do to help the poor is sheer gratuity. Just World thinking is incredibly strong in this country. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/84 "2013-09-12T19:21:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think it runs up against Just World theories, like so many other things. If you believe people get what’s coming to them then all of the poor are essentially undeserving of help. Maybe there can be strata of “more undeserving” and “less undeserving” but if you think people are poor because they are bad/stupid/lazy then anything you do to help the poor is sheer gratuity. > > Just World thinking is incredibly strong in this country. I don’t believe the poor are undeserving of help, but surely you would agree that this can go too far the other way? Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. I am not arguing that this is all poor people; there are certainly _some_ poor people who are poor through no fault of their own. I think it’s reasonable to want to help the people in the latter group; they do work their way out of poverty into the middle class, given help. I also think it’s reasonably to wonder why we keep helping the people in the former group, as after a while it seems like pouring money down a black hole. People aren’t entirely responsible for all aspects of their situation, which is why Just World is a fallacy. But that doesn’t mean they bear NO responsibility either. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/85 "2013-09-12T19:25:34Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > These costs must depend **a lot** on location. [Here’s](http://stopandshop.shoplocal.com/stopandshop/default.aspx?action=entry&pretailerid=-99254&siteid=673&storeid=2598921) a flyer from a supermarket in a poor Boston neighborhood. > > I could feed three cats on $10/week. Ooo! Chicken’s on sale! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/86 "2013-09-12T19:25:41Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t believe the poor are undeserving of help, but surely you would agree that this can go too far the other way? Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. I am not arguing that this is all poor people; there are certainly _some_ poor people who are poor through no fault of their own. > > I think it’s reasonable to want to help the people in the latter group; they do work their way out of poverty into the middle class, given help. I also think it’s reasonably to wonder why we keep helping the people in the former group, as after a while it seems like pouring money down a black hole. > > People aren’t entirely responsible for all aspects of their situation, which is why Just World is a fallacy. But that doesn’t mean they bear NO responsibility either. I keep on searching for the bit in the bible where it is said that only the deserving poor and hungry who should be helped. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/87 "2013-09-12T19:29:12Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t believe the poor are undeserving of help, but surely you would agree that this can go too far the other way? Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. I am not arguing that this is all poor people; there are certainly _some_ poor people who are poor through no fault of their own. Some? How many? I can agree that some people are stupid fools. Should stupid people starve? Should it be essentially impermissible to be stupid? Should the stupid suffer? I can agree that some people make bad decisions. Should people who make bad decisions starve? Should it be essentially impermissible to make bad decisions? Should making bad decisions doom you? And, even if we could agree on these answers, how do you tell the deserving from the undeserving? How do you separate the sheep from the goats? Is that possible, is it right, and are we really in a position to judge that? Just World doesn’t just say that those people are getting what’s coming to _them_. It also says that I have gotten what’s coming to me, and that I have what I have because I’m better than they are. That I have more options and more money because I am better and they are lesser. I reject that utterly. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/88 "2013-09-12T19:33:59Z")
Anyone who opposes social welfare spending forfeits their right to complain about panhandlers, stupid Walmart employees, juvenile deliquents, muggers, “bad” neighborhoods, stupid drivers, higher insurance premiums, child abuse, homicides, stupid students, teenage pregnancies, drug abuse, and stupid people. All the “shoulds” in the world won’t fix these things. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/89 "2013-09-12T19:34:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I keep on searching for the bit in the bible where it is said that only the deserving poor and hungry who should be helped. Good luck on that search. But religiosity and Just World are pretty highly correlated, if I remember correctly. I know that I believed it until I became an atheist. And Heaven is just a Just World stretched out a bit further in time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/90 "2013-09-12T19:39:16Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t believe the poor are undeserving of help, but surely you would agree that this can go too far the other way? Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. I am not arguing that this is all poor people; there are certainly _some_ poor people who are poor through no fault of their own. > > I think it’s reasonable to want to help the people in the latter group; they do work their way out of poverty into the middle class, given help. I also think it’s reasonably to wonder why we keep helping the people in the former group, as after a while it seems like pouring money down a black hole. > > People aren’t entirely responsible for all aspects of their situation, which is why Just World is a fallacy. But that doesn’t mean they bear NO responsibility either. How do you propose to separate the responsible from the irresponsible, the unlucky from the stupid, the deserving from the undeserving? How deep do you want the background checks to go, and will the added cost of trying to find out cost more or less than the money you are trying to save? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/91 "2013-09-12T19:40:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I keep on searching for the bit in the bible where it is said that only the deserving poor and hungry who should be helped. While you’re looking, you might want to find the part where it says non Christians should care what it says. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/92 "2013-09-12T19:43:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do you propose to separate the responsible from the irresponsible, the unlucky from the stupid, the deserving from the undeserving? How deep do you want the background checks to go, and will the added cost of trying to find out cost more or less than the money you are trying to save? Well, given that I have advocated a negative income tax in other threads, I think the appropriate amount of background checking is zero. I’m just trying to point out that just because you dislike the idea of welfare doesn’t make you some immoral monster; a concept I find far too often on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/93 "2013-09-12T19:47:43Z")
I’m big on personal responsibility, but I have a hard time applying the same standard to the kid born with fetal alcohol syndrome and subjected to poverty and abuse, as the child of middle or upper class and educated parents. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/94 "2013-09-12T20:00:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Anyone who opposes social welfare spending forfeits their right to complain about panhandlers, stupid Walmart employees, juvenile deliquents, muggers, “bad” neighborhoods, stupid drivers, higher insurance premiums, child abuse, homicides, stupid students, teenage pregnancies, drug abuse, and stupid people. All the “shoulds” in the world won’t fix these things. Add to that list the poor quality of education. After working in widescale student assessment for ten years, I have come to the conclusion that no amount of testing will ever solve the problems American schools are facing as much as solving poverty problems would. The teachers aren’t bad. The students aren’t bad. The parents aren’t bad. To oversimplify, the main problem with our schools is poverty ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/95 "2013-09-12T20:05:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do you propose to separate the responsible from the irresponsible, the unlucky from the stupid, the deserving from the undeserving? How deep do you want the background checks to go, and will the added cost of trying to find out cost more or less than the money you are trying to save? [Drug](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/welfare-drug-testing_n_3822750.html) [testing\*](http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20130326-editorial-no-drug-tests-for-welfare-texas-should-heed-floridas-lesson.ece) [obviously](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/30/the-myth-of-welfare-and-drug-use.html) [isn’t](http://www.salon.com/2013/08/29/gop%E2%80%99s_inane_money_eating_sham_drug_tests_for_welfare_a_huge_failure/) the most efficient way to [sort out the riff raff](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us/no-savings-found-in-florida-welfare-drug-tests.html?_r=0) from the deserving. - Most of these links are basically the same article, but I posted several different sources so as not to be accused of being biased or having an agenda. However, I think just about all the reporting that came up on my Google search was from what might be considered liberal sources. Did the best I could with the time I was willing to spend. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/96 "2013-09-12T20:09:51Z")
Sorry, guys. Rough day of dealing with particularly damaged folk. None of whom has much of any chance of participating meaningfully in the competitive workplace. But which - if any - of them ought to get which kind of aid? The schizophrenic child abuser? The guy who seems to have drunk himself into dementia? The guy in his 40s who has never worked and whose whole family is receiving some kind of aid or another? The guy with borderline intellectual functioning and a seizure disorder who cannot afford his meds? And they just keep on coming… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/97 "2013-09-12T20:14:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > In my job I regularly work with extremely impoverished and impaired individuals. I’m curious exactly what - if any - assistance folk believe ought to be provided to the least capable persons. I don’t wish to sound overly dramatic, but even if you think someone is largely responsible for their current situation, do you wish them to live on the streets? To starve? > > Take the guy I just spoke with - longtime hard drinker, illiterate. Showing the impact of decades of misadventure - most likely with other, non drinking-related physical and mental conditions. You make the rules. Is it better for this individual to be provided some minimal assistance/support of some kind, or better for him to fend for himself? > > My personal opinion is that a society as wealthy as ours ought to provide some MINIMAL safety net - the exact form and extent of which might be debated. But the current situation impresses me as being far from optimal. Assistance is often very difficult to obtain, comes from various sources with varying requirements, and is subject to various limitations. Contrary to what some people seem to think, my OP did not advocate eliminating or even cutting any programs. I was merely trying to open a debate about how America treats poor people. There are large number of government programs intended to help the poor. In the past few years new programs have been added and budgets increased for many old ones. This goes against the common narrative that I usually hear. Now as others have pointed out, the fact that the government spends large amounts of money on these programs doesn’t always translate to improved living for poor people. Getting signed up for these programs is a huge bureaucratic hassle, which some people aren’t even capable of handling. Waiting lists can be long and it can take years between when someone applies and when they actually start receiving benefits. There are irksome rules, such as that when the amount of money one gets from program is above a certain amount, that disqualifies people from other programs. Yet despite all these headaches, which are typical of what one expects whenever large government programs exist, many people seem to feel that yet more government programs and bigger budgets are the answer. We’re all unhappy with how the government’s anti-poverty efforts function. I doubt that more federal money would cure the headaches, shorten the waiting lists, or reduce the bureaucracy. If we’re going to create a better-working social safety net, I think the first step we need is an understanding of what we currently have, and what its flaws are. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/98 "2013-09-12T20:16:45Z")
I’m not quite sure we can talk about poverty without also talking about our healthcare system, especially the lack of mental healthcare availability. Because it sounds like \*\*Dinsdale’\*\*s clients could use some assistance on that front. I doubt there is much available to them. Some people are living in poverty because of their own decisions that are due to untreated and often undiagnosed mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/99 "2013-09-12T20:30:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If we’re going to create a better-working social safety net, I think the first step we need is an understanding of what we currently have, and what its flaws are. To add to the list of flaws, we can’t ignore the current stigma associated with “being on the dole”. My current boss was telling me a story of the time he got laid off. Knowing there was assistance available and being the breadwinner for his family, he went to the unemployment office to apply. He left about five minutes later, because he didn’t want to be “one of those people”. Now, the good part of the story is that he found a good job a week later. The bad part is that A - losing his job didn’t inspire any sympathy for others in that position and B - despite needing the money, he didn’t want to accept the help because he felt others would look down on him for it. I don’t know how to fix the first, but fixing the second would probably help a lot of those impoverished get back on their feet. Not to harp on my pet idea, but that’s why I like the Negative income tax: if everyone gets it, there’s no stigma associated with it, and if everyone gets it automatically, there’s not a huge number of hurdles to go through to get it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/100 "2013-09-12T20:30:43Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. So what? You’ve never made a bad decision? In fact, it’s pretty much evidence of some bad decision-making that they’re poor. And also that you’re not rich. But plenty of bad decisions are made in good faith. Look at all the unemployed lawyers. Can you fault them for getting a law degree? Can you fault any of the over-educated student loan paying baristas at Starbucks for picking the wrong major? And even if they partied, got high, and screwed every hooker in sight from senior year of high school until they ran out of money, what the hell do you propose to do with them now? Watch them waste away on the sidewalk? No, even if the poor deserve every horrible thing that happens to them, we should spare them for our sake. It’s simply better for everyone not to have beggars and thieves everywhere. It’s better if we give the poor a chance to learn from and fix their mistakes (and consequently – possibly – eventually – produce something of value for our society), rather than doom them to despair for the rest of their lives for their faults. Living on the dole is not a fun, rocking chair existence. And it shouldn’t be. But it should provide some opportunities for betterment while preventing despondency and despair. For our sake, if not for the poor themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598.md?page=6)