# How America treats the poor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598 "2013-09-11T20:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/101 "2013-09-12T20:41:41Z")
Excellent post, **DrCube**. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/102 "2013-09-12T20:45:18Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t believe the poor are undeserving of help, but surely you would agree that this can go too far the other way? Surely you agree that _some_ people are poor through their own bad decisions. I am not arguing that this is all poor people; there are certainly _some_ poor people who are poor through no fault of their own. > > I think it’s reasonable to want to help the people in the latter group; they do work their way out of poverty into the middle class, given help. I also think it’s reasonably to wonder why we keep helping the people in the former group, as after a while it seems like pouring money down a black hole. > > People aren’t entirely responsible for all aspects of their situation, which is why Just World is a fallacy. But that doesn’t mean they bear NO responsibility either. There are always people who take advantage of everything. Always. There was a lottery winner in Michigan who continued to take welfare/WIC payments. How many other people should suffer because she was a jerk? I tossed a stick of dynamite into the sewer main. Should we discontinue the sewer service to the whole street because I’m a jerk? You just have to realize that there will always be abusers of the system and work to exclude them as time goes on, not make everyone suffer because of it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/103 "2013-09-12T20:52:54Z")
We can talk about the poor and their poor choices all day long. But most poor people didn’t make any choice because they’re children. Should we punish them for the choices made by someone else? How does persistence hunger help them rise above their parents’ choices? Doesn’t this just make the situation worse? Doesn’t allowing the existence of hungry kids today ensure that we will always and forever be talking about hungry kids? ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/104 "2013-09-12T21:00:15Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > I’m not quite sure we can talk about poverty without also talking about our healthcare system, especially the lack of mental healthcare availability. Because it sounds like \*\*Dinsdale’\*\*s clients could use some assistance on that front. I doubt there is much available to them. Some people are living in poverty because of their own decisions that are due to untreated and often undiagnosed mental illness. I work with my local NAMI, and I find that actually, the truth is even more disturbing: a lot of poor people get _some_ access to “mental health care”…and what they get, is often of very poor quality. As in, it damaged/is damaging them even more than if they didn’t get access at all. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/105 "2013-09-12T21:30:14Z")
> [@Q.N.Jones](#): > > I work with my local NAMI, and I find that actually, the truth is even more disturbing: a lot of poor people get _some_ access to “mental health care”…and what they get, is often of very poor quality. As in, it damaged/is damaging them even more than if they didn’t get access at all. My wife went through nursing assistant training awhile ago. The hospice she had to work for two weeks at to complete the training horrified her. I really wish they had passed single payer health care instead of the horrible Obamacare monstrosity. Something that properly funds mental hospitals and similar. > [@monstro](#): > > We can talk about the poor and their poor choices all day long. But most poor people didn’t make any choice because they’re children. Should we punish them for the choices made by someone else? It doesn’t matter if some of them made poor choices. They are where they are. We should help them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/106 "2013-09-12T21:30:34Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Sure, here in the real world that’s what it means. In the rightwingoverse, it means your weekly drive to the grocery store in your Cadillac to pick up t-bone steaks and Faygo with your foodstamps may get put off by a sudden, fleeting sense of shame over taking generous handouts when there are self-reliant Randian demi-gods like **Werekoala** who has had to struggle uphill both ways for absolutely everything in his life. Taking swipes at other posters by posting caricatures of their positions is not appropriate and does nothing to promote discussion. Doing so when not even engaged with the poster is liable to garner a Warning for personal attacks. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/107 "2013-09-12T22:13:37Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Just for the record, I went to the local grocery store tonight and bought; > > 2 french bread-style rolls (sandwich style) at $.25 each. One head of lettuce at 1.65, one tomato at .89, one purple onion at $.85, package of smoked turkey at $2.55, package of American cheese at $1.00. Mayo and Mustard already in the fridge at home. > > Not the most inspiring of meals, I know, but the veggies, cheese, and meat will last all week for two, and the total price was $6.59. If I don’t include all the other extravagances I bought at the time, I still think that I and my SigOth could survive for at least 4-5 days on that. Wouldn’t be awesome, wouldn’t be much variety, but it’s doable, even if I splurged and bought 14\*.25 rolls at $3.50 total for a whole 7-day period. > > Let’s assume you multiply that out by a family of 4 - so you double it and you get… $20.18 give or take. What, one healthy sammich not enough, then double it to $40.36. > > That’s turkey, lettuce, onion, and tomato sammiches for 4, twice a day, for 7 days. > > It can be done. If you wanna get all crazy up in here and add chips for every meal, then don’t buy Lay’s, buy store brand, and add maybe $6 for the week? We’re edging onto $50/week for 4 people. > > It’s not glamorous, sure, but it’s not exactly starvation either. Soda? Milk? Juice? Sure, if you can afford it, but water has worked well since about 3.5 billion years ago or so. > > It’s not so much a matter of what people need, it’s what they **want** , and that’s a whole other discussion. This is so much complete nonsense. We just bought sliced turkey - it was $4 for half a pound. I’m guessing you got about a quarter pound of turkey, or about 4 ounces. A slice of turkey is about .75 ounces. So, you’re looking at about 5.33 slices of turkey. So, I can eat 10 sandwiches, each with a half a slice of turkey. That kind of fits with your $0.25 buns. At my grocery store, this week anyway, I can get 12 mini slider buns for $3.00. So, you’re suggesting that I can survive on two mini slider sized 1/2 half slice turkey sandwiches a day? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/108 "2013-09-12T22:54:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is so much complete nonsense. We just bought sliced turkey - it was $4 for half a pound. I’m guessing you got about a quarter pound of turkey, or about 4 ounces. > > A slice of turkey is about .75 ounces. So, you’re looking at about 5.33 slices of turkey. So, I can eat 10 sandwiches, each with a half a slice of turkey. > > That kind of fits with your $0.25 buns. At my grocery store, this week anyway, I can get 12 mini slider buns for $3.00. So, you’re suggesting that I can survive on two mini slider sized 1/2 half slice turkey sandwiches a day? I don’t know about that. I can get cheap turkey for 3.99 a pound. And the baked-at-the-store bread rolls are about 50cents each. I think that’s more regional/you need to buy the cheapest, dirtiest stuff to get it really cheap. Clearly, two anecdotes don’t nullify your anecdote, but you can find cheap things that are normally expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/109 "2013-09-12T23:00:03Z")
Being able to budget two _whole_ slices of turkey per day, rather than two half-slices, doesn’t really make **Werekoala** ’s sandwich/starvation diet more practical. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/110 "2013-09-12T23:07:10Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Being able to budget two _whole_ slices of turkey per day, rather than two half-slices, doesn’t really make **Werekoala** ’s sandwich/starvation diet more practical. If you’re trying to say I missed the point of your post…I’d say you’re correct. To save face, I must bluster: IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE. You just can’t _comprehend_, man. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/111 "2013-09-12T23:23:51Z")
Well, [here’s a guy](http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/eating-healthily-for-3-a-day/) that documents a 2000 calorie a day healthy diet at $90/month. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/112 "2013-09-12T23:28:15Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I lived for about a year on a weekly food budget of around $10 a week. Yes, it was boring. Yes, I ate the same thing an awful lot. Yes, I had a lot of leftovers. But no, I didn’t starve or lose an appreciable amount of weight. This was around 2004-2005, but even if you want to double prices for inflation, that’s mean $100 for a family of 4 is enough. Not great, not happy, not optimal, but enough. Bravo for you. Did you have to plan meals for a diabetic and someone with food allergies severe enough to make for a trip to the ER if they ate the wrong thing? I did. It wasn’t fun. White rice and potatoes are cheap as hell, but it’s a recipe for disaster for a lot of diabetics. Also, were you doing manual labor, construction work, roofing, and the like? Because I was, which greatly increased my caloric needs above the baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/113 "2013-09-12T23:32:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, [here’s a guy](http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/eating-healthily-for-3-a-day/) that documents a 2000 calorie a day healthy diet at $90/month. Yeah. If you have an equipped kitchen, cooking and nutrition knowledge, and access to a good grocery, you can get by on a minimal budget. It sure ain’t as easy as slapping sandwiches together. Maybe food stamp programs should include vouchers for cooking classes? ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/114 "2013-09-12T23:38:22Z")
I will admit the items I bought were from a Tom Thumb grand opening, so probably less than they’d normally be, so I’ll back off a bit on that. However, there are still dollar stores where you can get many of the basics (and even some not-so-basics) for … well, around a dollar. Not fresh produce or anything, of course, but every bit helps. We do that, in fact, and have even in better times - no point in spending more than you have to, and I don’t mind it a bit. Some folks would never stoop that low of course, but I’m not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/115 "2013-09-12T23:39:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well I’ve learned something new today. Thank you. But in any case, the PPACA (“Obamacare”) is expanding Medicaid and making subsidized health care plans available to both the poor and middle class. Once in effect, the poor will thus have health care. Not universally. Virgina and Indiana, as just two examples, are NOT expanding Medicaid. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/116 "2013-09-12T23:41:00Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Mostly. Rice and Beans showed up a lot. If you shop late at night when they’re replacing the stock, you can get meats right as the go on sale for not being fresh. So that’s your answer? Nothing but rice and bean and meat going bad? Wow. Do people really think that’s OK long term? Not mention that you don’t need meat if you have rice and beans, a better choice would be spending either the bean or the meat money on actual vegetables or fruit. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/117 "2013-09-12T23:44:16Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Perhaps we should revisit TANF - as in the acronym is for “ **Temporary** Assistance to Needy Families”. If you’re trying to live for a decade on food stamps, you’re doing something wrong. “Food stamps” (actually, SNAP) are NOT part of TANF. It would really help if you knew what the heck you were talking about. > [@](#): > > It’s not that I think we shouldn’t help people who are down on their luck - it’s that I don’t think we should do it on a permanent basis. So the elderly and disabled and poor kids should just starve if they can’t become young, able-bodied, and born to better parents within an arbitrary time period? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/118 "2013-09-12T23:46:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, [here’s a guy](http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/eating-healthily-for-3-a-day/) that documents a 2000 calorie a day healthy diet at $90/month. That’s an excellent guide, but those prices seem out of date. Even going to the stores that he mentioned when they weren’t local showed those prices don’t work, at least in my region. It looks to be about 20% more overall. ($115) Overall, it’s a good indicator of what kind of diet you’d need, but it’s also $90 per person. Which means with three people in a family, you would quickly outstrip what you could afford on assistance. Remember, a woman with a child who posted up thread received $157 a month in food stamps. Just the two of them are operating at a negative 23 a month just on that. I also…wonder what he’s doing with that. I mean 1 tablespoon of olive oil? In what? Is he just, like, drinking that tablespoon? If he’s cooking with it, none of that will really make it into his diet. If he boils the beans and broccoli, he’ll lose a lot of nutritional value, also. I hope he thinks about that before he tries that diet out. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/119 "2013-09-13T04:25:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Good luck on that search. But religiosity and Just World are pretty highly correlated, if I remember correctly. I know that I believed it until I became an atheist. > > And Heaven is just a Just World stretched out a bit further in time. I am not a Christian, but do believe in many of the strictures suggested by Christianity and other religions. None suggest only helping the deserving, only helping the needy. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598/120 "2013-09-13T04:28:13Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > While you’re looking, you might want to find the part where it says non Christians should care what it says. I assume that Christianity is the most obvious religious reference for the Western world. ALl major religions, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism share the same Golden rule derived necessity to treat the lowly well. If I were writing on an Indian Board I would have referenced Hinduism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-america-treats-the-poor/668598.md?page=7)