# How ancient are the oldest documents which are still classified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479 "2013-08-06T09:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/1 "2013-08-06T09:30:25Z")
A couple of years ago, I recall reading an article in which somebody claimed that the government of the United Kingdom to this day won’t release some historical documents relating to the British involvement in the Napoleonic wars. For the life of me, I’m not able to find this article or any reference to the subject and I’ve come to the conclusion that this can’t possibly be true. But how old are the most secret documents which are still kept from the public eye by any government in the world? Are there still state secrets from the 19th century? Or has Edward Snowden leaked them too? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/2 "2013-08-06T10:01:07Z")
My guess would be the ones in the Vatican library. > **[Vatican Cracks Open Doors to Catholic Church's 'Secret' Archive](https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/05/18/vatican-cracks-open-doors-to-catholic-churchs-secret-archive)** > > Galileo admission of heresy, Martin Luther excommunication notice on display in Rome, and on the Web ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/3 "2013-08-06T10:08:52Z")
This is probably better in IMHO as secret documents are by definition secret and therefore no GQ answer is going to be available. As for the British government and the Napoleonic Wars, keeping some documents secret makes sense if some secret techniques are still in use. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/4 "2013-08-06T10:25:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This is probably better in IMHO as secret documents are by definition secret and therefore no GQ answer is going to be available. Yes, that is probably what Donald Rumsfeld meant when he was talking about [unknown unknowns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/5 "2013-08-06T12:23:43Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > My guess would be the ones in the Vatican library. > > [http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/05/18/vatican-cracks-open-doors-to-catholic-churchs-secret-archive](http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/05/18/vatican-cracks-open-doors-to-catholic-churchs-secret-archive) As the article says, researchers are allowed into the Secret Archives. Its hard to get permission, but despite the name, the archives aren’t really that secret. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/6 "2013-08-06T12:35:36Z")
Until very recently, the CIA still kept [classified, six documents from 1917-1918 detailing secret writing techniques.](http://www.foia.cia.gov/special_collections) [Scroll down to, “CIA Declassifies Oldest Documents in U.S. Government Collection. April 19, 2011”] They claim those were, “the United States Government’s six oldest classified documents.” You can read them at the above link. God knows what replaced them as the oldest, assuming the claim wasn’t BS to begin with. I recall a televised PBS interview with an employee of either the National Archives or the CIA, discussing the classification system, where the employee mentioned documents from the Spanish-American War era that still, in his opinion, needed to be classified. The interviewer was a bit incredulous. I may be mistaking the above six documents for those, though. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/7 "2013-08-06T13:06:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This is probably better in IMHO as secret documents are by definition secret and therefore no GQ answer is going to be available. Not necessarily. The _contents_ of the document could be secret, while the existence, date, and general subject matter might be known. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/8 "2013-08-06T14:20:33Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Until very recently, the CIA still kept [classified, six documents from 1917-1918 detailing secret writing techniques.](http://www.foia.cia.gov/special_collections) [Scroll down to, “CIA Declassifies Oldest Documents in U.S. Government Collection. April 19, 2011”] What a Hoot! Secret formula for **Invisible Ink!** Gov’t secret for nearly 100 years! They probably got it from an issue of _Boy’s Life!_ 😃 Thanks for that link. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/9 "2013-08-06T14:38:34Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I recall a televised PBS interview with an employee of either the National Archives or the CIA, discussing the classification system, where the employee mentioned documents from the Spanish-American War era that still, in his opinion, needed to be classified. The interviewer was a bit incredulous. I may be mistaking the above six documents for those, though. I could maybe understand that. They may document strategies that the US used that would be considered offensive. In other words, it would just give other countries (especially those involved) more anti-US fodder. Benefits of unclassifying it? Essentially none. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/10 "2013-08-06T15:16:36Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > I could maybe understand that. They may document strategies that the US used that would be considered offensive. In other words, it would just give other countries (especially those involved) more anti-US fodder. Benefits of unclassifying it? Essentially none. Ridiculous. Knowledge of history is paramount. Historical information \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> Petty insecurities by idiots at government x. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/11 "2013-08-06T16:37:50Z")
All those documents proving that alien corpses were dissected in Area 51? Also, the secret documents proving that Kennedy was murdered by Lyndon Johnson? ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/12 "2013-08-06T16:38:56Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > A couple of years ago, I recall reading an article in which somebody claimed that the government of the United Kingdom to this day won’t release some historical documents relating to the British involvement in the Napoleonic wars. Even if that was true, those would be far from being the oldest government records in the UK that remain closed. While not quite the same thing as being classified, it is not completely unknown for some legal records to have been (literally) sealed by law courts and for those records to remain unopened. Examples, probably dating from the sixteenth or seventeenth centuries, can be found [here](http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C14211). The principle of respecting court orders trumps mere curiosity. Similar issues apply to the archives of the Apostolic Penitentiary in Rome, which is the one bit of the papal archives that has extraordinarily long closure periods, as those are treated as information given in confession. But those are now open to the 1580s. As for the Vatican Secret Archives, the real issue is not access but the fact that its sheer bulk means that the cataloging is inevitably rather inadequate. Hardly a unique problem. It is however worth remembering that French archivists went through everything when the documents were removed to Paris in 1810, so the chances of there being anything obviously sensational are pretty remote. And the French never returned many of the documents after 1815 anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/13 "2013-08-06T17:04:58Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Ridiculous. > > Knowledge of history is paramount. > > Historical information \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> Petty insecurities by idiots at government x. Go ahead and publish your Executive Order overriding improper classification then. Oh. Right. Or to paraphrase a [past Idiot at Government](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin), “History? How many divisions does it have?” In a fair fight against Principle and Power, I might choose Principle. However, Power never participates in a Fair Fight. So History will just have to wait until the petty insecurities of the current government are useful embarrassments to the next one. ETA: Never confuse “what should be” with “what actually is”. If you have a concrete plan for making the two the same in the direction you choose, fine. Otherwise, your argument has absolutely no validity. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/14 "2013-08-06T17:53:20Z")
Didn’t “60 Minutes” do a piece about this a while back? Wherever it aired, the interviewee said that the U.S. has still-classified documents from WW I, because they contain information that is relevant to present-day political situations. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/15 "2013-08-06T18:35:47Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Didn’t “60 Minutes” do a piece about this a while back? Wherever it aired, the interviewee said that the U.S. has still-classified documents from WW I, because they contain information that is relevant to present-day political situations. Like what? The nations that fought the war no longer exist in many cases. I think its just inertia. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/16 "2013-08-06T19:16:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Like what? The nations that fought the war no longer exist in many cases. I think its just inertia. Stuff like the [UKUSA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement) Agreement comes to mind. The existence of this one is no longer secret, but I’m certain there are particulars nobody outside certain departments in the intelligence community get to know about–something like Great Britain’s Wizengamot decisions regarding the use of veritaserum on nonmuggle combatants and whether such information can be shared if it potentially compromises the secret status of the wizarding community. Fictional example, of course, but that would be the general spirit of stuff that would remain secret. There might also be a very old and hushed up intelligence sharing/shady trade agreement entered into by Great Britain that compels the USA to maintain diplomatic ties with Afghanistan, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/17 "2013-08-06T20:05:46Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > My guess would be the ones in the Vatican library. > > [http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/05/18/vatican-cracks-open-doors-to-catholic-churchs-secret-archive](http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/05/18/vatican-cracks-open-doors-to-catholic-churchs-secret-archive) This sounds like something fascinating to take a peek at! Does anybody here know a working link to that? The article mentions a Vatican Museum exhibit called _Lux in Arcana_, displaying a selection of those old “secret” documents, including Galileo’s signed “confession”. And it mentions that the exhibition is on-line too! As a minor-league small-time arm-chair history buff, I’d like to take a glance at that. Another news article: [Lux in Arcana: the Vatican secret archive reveals itself: exhibition Capitoline Museums, Rome | HELLO!](http://www.hellomagazine.com/travel/201203137403/lux-in-arcana-exhibition-vatican-rome/) Link to the actual exhibit: [http://www.luxinarcana.org/en](http://www.luxinarcana.org/en) which only displays: “403 Forbidden You don’t have permission to access /en on this server.” On closer examination: Those articles were from _last year_ (2012), and say the exhibit runs through September (2012?). Anybody know if any of that is still around? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/18 "2013-08-06T20:14:09Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Stuff like the [UKUSA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement) Agreement comes to mind. The existence of this one is no longer secret, but I’m certain there are particulars nobody outside certain departments in the intelligence community get to know about–something like Great Britain’s Wizengamot decisions regarding the use of veritaserum on nonmuggle combatants and whether such information can be shared if it potentially compromises the secret status of the wizarding community. Fictional example, of course, but that would be the general spirit of stuff that would remain secret. There might also be a very old and hushed up intelligence sharing/shady trade agreement entered into by Great Britain that compels the USA to maintain diplomatic ties with Afghanistan, for example. And that would play in today’s world…how? Or what about in the 1960’s when the US had zero interests in Afghanistan? Only thing I can reasonably see as remaining classified are information pertaining to Tube Alloys and the Manhattan Project. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/19 "2013-08-06T20:41:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > And that would play in today’s world…how? Or what about in the 1960’s when the US had zero interests in Afghanistan? Not sure I understand your question. I’m a bit fuzzy about details on the treaties resulting from the Opium Wars, but I do know the USA & France were signatories along with Great Britain, and that Afghanistan is currently a major producer (if not a major supplier to the EIC in the early 1800s). But if the three Western countries entered into an agreement to quietly allow/promote production of the stuff in exchange for whatever it is we get from an alliance with Afghanistan (eyes on China? not nuking India? safekeeping of The Ark of the Covenant?), that would be worth keeping secret. As for the 60s, we had another circus to overtly point to. That doesn’t mean we had no interest in Afghanistan. In fact, I seem to recall we supported them when the USSR wanted to annex them in the 80s. Maybe we wanted to stop the USSR, maybe there was another reason. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/20 "2013-08-07T02:07:53Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Didn’t “60 Minutes” do a piece about this a while back? Wherever it aired, the interviewee said that the U.S. has still-classified documents from WW I, because they contain information that is relevant to present-day political situations. Funny you should mention this. Years ago a “60 Minutes” segment featured an interview with now-deceased Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York. The senator was a big champion of transparency in government. In his rant against the government’s zeal to classify everything it touches he mentioned that the U.S. still held WWI-era documents that remained legally classified! Obviously he could not say what they contained. That tidbit nagged at me long after the segment aired. Eventually I posted a question on the SDMB asking if anyone knew what documents Moynihan was referring to. I’m pretty sure the thread drew a blank. I now suspect that the invisible ink docs (mentioned upthread) were the files in question. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479.md?page=2)