# How ancient are the oldest documents which are still classified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479 "2013-08-06T09:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/41 "2013-08-18T19:34:34Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > A letter in Windsor Castle attesting that Edwar I’s grandson (Edward III) was really William Wallace’s son with Isabella. I think that Mel Gibson pulled an Edward Snowden and blew the cover off of this one in the 1990s. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/42 "2013-08-18T19:44:45Z")
My WAG with no evidence: would the Spanish government classify certain nautical records from the colonial period? I thought those shipwreck locations are still considered secrets and any finds are claimed by Spain in court. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/43 "2013-08-18T21:52:52Z")
May I ask our UKers is ALL WW2 docs will be declassified after 75 years? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/44 "2013-08-18T23:03:26Z")
handsomeharry, did you bother to read my post? William Wallace could not have been Edward III’s father. He died seven years before Edward III was born. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/45 "2015-05-28T06:06:49Z")
THis does raise the question, why would documents remain classified for so long, outside or Court records and technical information. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/46 "2015-05-28T08:24:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > THis does raise the question, why would documents remain classified for so long, outside or Court records and technical information. What raises that question? The nearly two year pause before this post of yours? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/47 "2015-05-28T08:28:07Z")
Good, you can read (and count).:rolleyes: Now maybe you have an answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/48 "2015-05-28T08:34:43Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Yes, that is probably what Donald Rumsfeld meant when he was talking about [unknown unknowns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns). 😉 I thought he was referring to the lower right pane of glass in Johari’s Window. ---
**Author:** ![Jesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Jesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesta)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/49 "2015-05-28T14:41:11Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > And it’s written in _French_! What sort of conspiracy is this? 😃 So, this is what came of french letters? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/50 "2015-05-28T14:52:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > For British dopers: are the cargo manifest of the liner “Lusitania” still secret? I recall that the British government never explained just what the ship was carrying (there was a large shipment of unknown contents to a arsenal in the UK). Apparently it was made public pretty early on: [link](http://www.rmslusitania.info/cargo/) and [here](http://www.rmslusitania.info/downloads/crossing202_supplementary_cargo_manifest.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/51 "2015-05-28T18:27:39Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > The journal of one of Catherine the Great’s ladies-in-waiting was suppressed until the late 1970s; that’s gotta be a contender. That’s surprising. When the Communists took power in Russia, they made a big show out of releasing all the secret files from the Imperial government. It was part ideology and part politics - many of these secret files put the Imperial government in a bad light. I’m sure some secret files were held back. (It’s virtually certain that some of the Communists who were now in power had been working as informants for the Imperial government before the Revolution. That’s good evidence, for example, that Stalin had been an informant.) But a journal by a court lady-in-waiting would have seemed to have been exactly the kind of thing the communists would have wanted to release. It presumably wasn’t flattering to Catherine; if it had been the Imperial government wouldn’t have made it a secret. So it must have contained information that would embarrass the Imperial government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/52 "2015-05-28T18:36:43Z")
Speaking of government informants, the British government had an agent known as Number 72 at the time of the American Revolution. This person was somebody highly placed who knew about the inner plans of the revolutionaries and was passing information on to the British. As far as I know, the British government has never revealed the identity of Number 72. There have been speculations that Number 72 was Benjamin Franklin. Franklin had been a late convert to the revolutionary cause. Until quite late he hoped that some sort of reconciliation could be worked out between England and the colonies. And he lived in London, where it would have been easy to recruit him. Early on, he might have believed that he was working for the best interests of America by passing on information to London. Later, when English and American interests had clearly diverged, Franklin might have been forced to continue spying because of the threat of being revealed. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/53 "2015-05-28T18:51:01Z")
Isn’t this a question that, by definition, would be impossible to know? ---
**Author:** ![Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90ced4/32.png) [@Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waltzes_with_Cacti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/54 "2015-05-28T18:56:27Z")
Queen Victoria’s daughter Princess Louise (1848-1939) is rumoured to have given birth to an illegitimate baby boy. She was married off to the heir to the Duke of Argyll. Several years ago the writer Lucinda Hawksley was researching a bio of Louise with an eye to confirming or refuting the baby rumours. She attempted to obtain access to letters and journal entries by or about the princess in the royal archives and the Argyll family records. On both fronts Hawksley was firmly rebuffed. No documents pertaining to Louise were released. There is another, rather bizarre act of suppression of information regarding Louise’s purported infant. It involves the withholding not of documents but of DNA. In 2004, the descendants of Henry Locock, the man who is widely believed to have been Louise’s son, sought permission from the Court of Arches, an ecclesiastical court in the Church of England, to have Locock’s body briefly exhumed so that a DNA sample could be obtained. The Locock family wanted to compare Henry’s MtDNA with that of Prince Philip’s to determine if Henry, like Philip, was a descendant in the female line from Queen Victoria. Philip’s MtDNA has been on record since he participated in the Anna Anderson investigation. The Court of Arches (which reports to the Queen as Head of the Church of England) refused permission on the grounds that Christian burials should remain inviolate. The Locock family objected, pointing out that numerous other graves had been moved within the cemertary where Henry lies, but to no avail. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/55 "2015-05-28T19:46:59Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > As the article says, researchers are allowed into the Secret Archives. Its hard to get permission, but despite the name, the archives aren’t really that secret. However, these could be the oldest:_Among the documents missing from the Lux in Arcana is correspondence between the Vatican and the Nazis during the Second World War, a sensitive topic for the church._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/56 "2015-05-28T20:28:48Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Apparently it was made public pretty early on: [link](http://www.rmslusitania.info/cargo/) and [here](http://www.rmslusitania.info/downloads/crossing202_supplementary_cargo_manifest.pdf) And which indeed show it was carrying contraband, and was thus a legit target. Not to mention ii was listed as a Armed Merchant cruiser in Janes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/57 "2015-05-28T20:45:29Z")
> [@Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](#): > > Queen Victoria’s daughter Princess Louise (1848-1939) is rumoured to have given birth to an illegitimate baby boy. She was married off to the heir to the Duke of Argyll. > The Court of Arches (which reports to the Queen as Head of the Church of England) refused permission on the grounds that Christian burials should remain inviolate. But that would make no difference at all. Her child would not be heir to the throne or anything. ’ Wanting to respect the privacy of the dead is not the same as "classified documents’ and in fact there no document here in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/58 "2015-05-28T21:28:20Z")
> [@Jesta](#): > > So, this is what came of french letters? What now came in French letters? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/59 "2015-05-28T22:42:11Z")
I can imagine that archived material having to do with assassinations or coups might resonate across the years in a very unpleasant way. I’m just making this up, but I can imagine that the British (and French) might have done things in the carving up of the Ottoman Empire that would still enrage people today. The last those countries need is even more pretext for would-be terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479/60 "2015-05-28T22:42:34Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > [Quote=ralph124c] > For British dopers: are the cargo manifest of the liner “Lusitania” still secret? I recall that the British government never explained just what the ship was carrying (there was a large shipment of unknown contents to a arsenal in the UK). Apparently it was made public pretty early on: [link](http://www.rmslusitania.info/cargo/) and [here](http://www.rmslusitania.info/downloads/crossing202_supplementary_cargo_manifest.pdf) [/QUOTE] Those date from 1915. The British weren’t in truth-telling mode in 1915. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-ancient-are-the-oldest-documents-which-are-still-classified/665479.md?page=4)