If you are serious about your stance that there is no indoctrination, I’ll have you know that when I was in school we were forced, via intercom from the principal, to stand and recite the Pledge Of Allegiance every school morning. We didn’t even have the usual “opt out” of either leaving the room in front of the entire class (where you were still forced to hear it while you stood in the hallway, or made to sit at your desk in silence with your head bowed while the others stood with their hands over their hearts and made to pledge, not to the country, but to the flag. While in the military during the showing of an on-base movie we had to stand at the beginning of every film while the same happened.
Are you being serious? I think asking school children to pay lip-service to a verbal attestation to, I don’t know, not commit sedition or something hardly infringes on anyone’s right.
Also it’s “…and to the Republic for which it [the flag] stands…”
But there’s nothing about the PoA that precludes anyone from doing anything AFAIKT.
I’m going to say that swearing allegiance to a country doesn’t make it “best”, it just affirms that i owe it something because it’s my country.
I’m not saying there isn’t propaganda about how great the US is, just that i didn’t think the pledge is it.
- It IS indoctrination. Said at the beginning of every school day when I grew up.
- The actual words are "I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
- What I know is what actually happened, and that we were forced to stand, listen to, and recite the pledge. Those that were slightly luckier “got to” either leave the room (and suffer the consequences), or sit at their desk quietly (and suffer the consequences).
I think most people find the place they grew up to be the best for them for that reason.
The best for me based on personal reasons really isn’t what anyone means when they say, “it’s the best”.
That’s more what this thread is about. But of course, there are people looking to immigrate to lots of countries. It would be interesting to look at, i dunno, the annual ratio of immigrants in and emigrants out (maybe not as well documented a number) or the ratio of people applying to immigrate per capita, or…
But nothing in the Pledge of Allegiance says the U.S. is the best country. Nor do any of patriotic songs we used to have to sing right after. America might be be beautiful, with all those amber wave of grain and purple mountains majesty, but we never sang about it being the most beautiful. Our national anthem is about how we won one battle in a barely remembered war. That’s not something that shouts out “We think we’re the best!”
Why would children need to recite the pledge daily? Surely if you’ve pledged your allegiance once, it stays pledged until you rescind it.
The only reason for the repetition is indoctrination: “we are one indivisible (ahem, Southerners) nation under God (ahem, Communists), and there is liberty and justice for all (but please just take our word for that one).”
*offer not good in all communities
Somebody’s view on the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem:
Also, if you’ll permit me to repeat …
“People are wonderful. I love individuals. I hate groups of people. I hate a group of people with a ‘common purpose’. 'Cause pretty soon they have little hats. And armbands. And fight songs. And a list of people they’re going to visit at 3am. So, I dislike and despise groups of people but I love individuals. Every person you look at; you can see the universe in their eyes, if you’re really looking.”
–George Carlin
Q: How and/or where do US citizens learn that the USA is the best country in the world?
A: Truck commercials.
Also WWII movies where the replace the Brits and Soviets for Americans.
Mostly on the Fourth of July where we get to take a day off from work to waive flags, eat hot dogs, and blow shit up.
It is, literally, an infringement on someone’s right to free speech, for expressly political purposes, committed daily against nearly every American child for decades.
Not quite on topic, but, man, I am jealous. Those incredibly different countries and their culture must have been amazing. I’ve been to some of them, but not actually lived in any.
In the spirit of the thread, for me: Zimbabwe is the greatest country in the world. I - like many Americans - am blind to the tragedies, impoverishments, lunatic politics and general insanity of my country. I love it, with all its faults.
I hold Zimbabwean, UK and South African citizenship; when I introduce myself, I state I am Zimbabwean. I don’t see that as the weird jingoist “patriotism” that seems to fuel American exceptionalism, to me, it is just a fact. No doubt exactly the same sentiment fuels the same irrationality in USA born people.
Later edit: fucking 3rd world shithole country Zimbabwe has universal health care. I could be hospitalised for months there, and not spend a cent. I might, however, not have sex there after the “greatest nation” cut off all HIV aid on the flimsy whim of whoever whispered into Trump’s ear… US foreign aid being the one major reason for most of us to respect the USA.
Not really “free” health care if the Greatest Country on Earth is paying for it, is it?
.. “was paying”, for some small proportion of it.
The US gave us cheap condoms. Better cheap condoms than no condoms, sure, but that was effectively the limit of the US largesse*. All other costs were born by the country.
To be fair, I had better quality healthcare due to me (my family) being able to afford private hospitals, but universal health care is free in government hospitals, both in Zim and South Africa. Hell, I live just a few hundred metres from Groote Schuur, the hospital in which
Dr. Chris Barnard performed the world’s first heart transplant. Given that it is a fully funded government hospital, that operation was most likely 100% free for the patient (there is obviously no way for me to verify this, I am not able to access confidential records)
* and even the cheap condoms were stopped under Trump.
I think the US also sent free (or cheap) anti-retroviral drugs to many nations. But i don’t think the US ever subsidized basic healthcare, like for maternity, or for heart disease, or cancer in Africa.
So what does make a country “best”? And is that even a meaningful thing?
I think that is misleading. What happened is that people complained to South Africa’s Competition Commission that companies were charging excessive and anti-competitive prices for anti-retroviral drugs, and the ruling forced them to grant licenses to generic manufacturers:
Similarly, India and Brazil have rejected some anti-retroviral patents:
Yeah, I was a foreign aid worker before the fascists disbanded USAID. I was in the field for years and after that, I spent about 6 months out of most years on the road. I really like working in a country to get to know it and its people.