# How are America's militia groups responding to the current insurgency? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 13, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413 "2021-01-13T06:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/1 "2021-01-13T06:13:26Z")
So we have a segment of the population willing to overthrow the government because things didn’t go their way, and a sitting President openly encouraging them to do so. How are the many militia groups in the U.S. responding to this situation? Do the oppose it, or support it? Are they talking about taking up arms to stop it, or to stand beside them? ---
**Author:** ![akwally1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akwally1/32/3220_2.png) [@akwally1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akwally1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/2 "2021-01-13T06:25:18Z")
Everything I’m seeing on Telegram, Parler, Gab, etc. is that the militias, particularly the Proudies are fully behind Trump and think that all this is going to go down on the 20th. These people be crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/3 "2021-01-13T07:06:04Z")
Not to suggest that these people aren’t dangerous individually, and that there won’t be sporadic violence on 20 January, but they just aren’t coordinated enough to do any permanent damage or overthrow state or federal governments. These groups have all been around for three decades or more and they rarely do more than talk big and drink cheap beer while playing solider on random weekends. The greater danger is that someone more competent than Trump and is clown car of circus curiosities could come along and actually organize these malcontents into an effective fascist movement. All of the pieces are here to make that happen; we’re fortunate Trump is too self-absorbed and undisciplined to organize his followers to do more than mill about committing random acts of vandalism and battery. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/4 "2021-01-13T07:28:51Z")
^^^ I agree with all of this, with the caveat that while this uncoordinated rabble can’t do any _permanent_ damage, the problems they could cause are still potentially significant and horrifying. Perhaps more importantly, the secondary risk in this is that any violence they commit could be exploited in the drift toward authoritarianism — i.e. if one deliberately severs right-wing rioting from its political origins, one could use it as justification for a broad increase in the surveillance state and repressive policing generally, which always ends up being used to defend established power structures against protest by marginalized people. But that’s a hijack from the original question, so I’ll leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/5 "2021-01-13T10:58:17Z")
I am shocked to learn that so many of the people who have spent years telling us they needed guns to defend the Constitution against tyranny have turned out to be anti-Constitution and pro-tyranny. _Shocked_, I tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Acierocolotl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acierocolotl/32/6241_2.png) [@Acierocolotl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acierocolotl)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/6 "2021-01-13T13:19:44Z")
I feel like whenever somebody plays down what isolated groups of disgruntled people might do, that it’s useful to revisit the example of Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators. His motives were different, but he was mad at the government and sought revenge and to ignite the spark of revolution. It’s not going to be as easy now as it was then to get hold of several tonnes of ANFO or other low quality explosives, but judging by online videos of rednecks blowing up cars for sport, it certainly isn’t impossible, and it wouldn’t take several tonnes to do real damage. It’s a threat that needs to be taken seriously, now more than ever. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/7 "2021-01-13T13:25:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > _Shocked_ , I tell you. Like, plus one, and so forth and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/8 "2021-01-13T16:03:27Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Perhaps more importantly, the secondary risk in this is that any violence they commit could be exploited in the drift toward authoritarianism — i.e. if one deliberately severs right-wing rioting from its political origins, one could use it as justification for a broad increase in the surveillance state and repressive policing generally, which always ends up being used to defend established power structures against protest by marginalized people. That is a very legitimate concern, and just as the September 11, 2001 attacks were used as an opportunity to USA PATRIOT Act (which had clearly been sitting in someone’s drawer awaiting such a justification) without significant debate or reflection, wide scale or damaging attacks akin to the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah building in Oklahoma City could result in implementing new strictures and expanding surveillance authority that are almost certainly already drafted. The OK bombing was actually counterproductive for the US militia movement insofar as it resulted in a mandate to have the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies more aggressively pursue far-right nationalist movements (an effort that fell by the wayside with 9/11), but with the subsequent erosion of protections against surveillance and expansion of FISA authority post-9/11, further large attacks could be used by nefarious actors as a quasi-_Reichstag_ event to go from warrantless surveillance to active arrest and detain powers. It was horrifying to see unidentified government agenda snatching protesters off the street in unmarked vehicles and physically assaulting journalists during protests this summer, but fear of wide scale domestic terrorism could allow that to become commonplace instead of exceptional, and even justified within legal authority. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/9 "2021-01-13T16:09:04Z")
Since the 1990’s, I suspect any militia group with more than 2 members has an FBI informant among their ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/10 "2021-01-13T16:36:52Z")
Are there any good links that show the opinions of various militia groups when it comes to this issue? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/11 "2021-01-14T04:55:53Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Since the 1990’s, I suspect any militia group with more than 2 members has an FBI informant among their ranks. Equally, since the 1990s I suspect any police department with more than 2 members has a militia member among its ranks. The legit police far outnumber the militias. But there are plenty of militia sympathizers, if not members, in positions where that should be an immediately disqualifying fault. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/12 "2021-01-14T05:03:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Not to suggest that these people aren’t dangerous individually, and that there won’t be sporadic violence on 20 January, but they just aren’t coordinated enough to do any permanent damage or overthrow state or federal governments. These groups have all been around for three decades or more and they rarely do more than talk big and drink cheap beer while playing solider on random weekends. The greater danger is that someone more competent than Trump and is clown car of circus curiosities could come along and actually organize these malcontents into an effective fascist movement. All of the pieces are here to make that happen; we’re fortunate Trump is too self-absorbed and undisciplined to organize his followers to do more than mill about committing random acts of vandalism and battery. > > Stranger > [@Cervaise](#): > > ^^^ I agree with all of this, with the caveat that while this uncoordinated rabble can’t do any _permanent_ damage, the problems they could cause are still potentially significant and horrifying. Ummm… I’m gonna disagree with y’all. Are y’all familiar with Ammon Bundy’s organization, People’s Rights? > **[Ammon's Army: Inside the Far-Right People's Rights Network ⋆ Institute for...](https://www.irehr.org/reports/peoples-rights-report/)** > > A special report on the rise of Ammon Bundy's new far-right network, People's Rights, which merges militias withCOVID-19 insurrectionists, anti-vaxxers, and conspiracists. > [@](#): > > Under the People’s Rights banner, Bundy has assembled a team of 153 “assistants” in sixteen states. > [@](#): > > This report also details how People’s Rights carved up the country into local areas. It maps the locations of the more than twenty thousand members of the People’s Rights network. It also dives into the data collected by report researchers on the composition of the online membership base of the twenty-two different People’s Rights Facebook groups that helped accelerate the spread of the network. The report digs into the new online platform developed by People’s Rights, a way to communicate with activists in case of de-platforming by major social networks. > [@](#): > > Bundy and People’s Rights created a network based on aggressive, belligerent non-compliance with the COVID-19 health directives. Bundy has repeatedly told his crowds, “Do not comply. That is what it will take.”[[12]](https://www.irehr.org/reports/peoples-rights-report/#_ftn12) > [@](#): > > The series of visible confrontations became a rallying cry around the country, setting off a wave of protests that one week later saw heavily-armed militia members storm the Michigan legislative chambers and the governor hung in effigy. It also gave spark to far-right groups opposed to COVID-19 restrictions. From April to September, the number of those groups swelled to 1,186 with 3,032,085 members.[[15]](https://www.irehr.org/reports/peoples-rights-report/#_ftn15) > > As attention shifted to the massive number of vocal groups clamoring to reopen the economy in the middle of a pandemic and opposing any sorts of health mandates like wearing masks, Bundy and People’s Rights were building an army behind the scenes. There is organization. There is coordination. And there are massive numbers of people. Plan for the worst; hope for the best. You can’t cut the rope longer. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Under-estimating an opponent is the most common reason for defeat. Good planning is never wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/13 "2021-01-14T05:40:26Z")
I forgot this bit: > [@](#): > > The results of this study contravene many of the myths surrounding the People’s Rights network. Instead of a more traditional “anti-government” narrative, People’s Rights leaders have expressed a desire for governmental power to be used to protect the “righteous” against “wicked” liberals, antifa, Black Lives Matter activists, and others. Several People’s Rights leaders are running for elected office—to _become_ the government. Absent that sort of intervention, leaders have proposed a type of armed enclave-style “neighborhood” nationalism, where “righteous” neighbors stand against the “wicked.” People’s Rights leaders have often defined the “wicked” using far-right conspiracism, racism, antisemitism, anti-indigenous, and anti-transgender sentiment. All of these quotes I’ve put up are from just the introductory chapter, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/14 "2021-01-14T05:45:15Z")
I suspect these groups vary pretty widely in terms of funding, competence, goals and membership. Some of them are probably nearly caricatures (as represented in Ronson’s great book _Them_) and some represent more present threats. Certainly they will be getting more attention. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/15 "2021-01-14T06:13:40Z")
And, of course, none of these so-called militia groups are legal. Paying the price for not cracking down on these nutjobs earlier. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/16 "2021-01-14T06:52:01Z")
Look, those nuts are a tiny % of NRA gun nuts and the NRA only represents 5% of gunowners. So, you are talking about a fraction of a %, not "_so many"._ It is actually “damn few”. If “so many” of the 100 million gun owners in the USA decided to stage a insurrection, it’d be really nasty. Note that are two types of militias in the USA- the ones organized by states etc that are NOT National Guard (the NG is now part of the standing army) such as Texas, and the not organized, almost always far right and white supremacist. _They_ are about 80 groups, and around 30000 members, i.e. 3/100s of 1% of the total gun owners. The Texas State militia all by itself has almost that number of members alone. 3 out of 10000 gun owners are in a right wing militia. This is tantamount to asking why all the nations drivers always drive drunk. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/17 "2021-01-14T06:58:06Z")
> **[Standing By: Right-Wing Militia Groups and the United States Election](https://acleddata.com/report/standing-right-wing-militia-groups-and-united-states-election)** > > ACLED and MilitiaWatch assess militia activity in the US before, during, and after the 2020 election, highlighting risks and trends. In this joint report, ACLED and MilitiaWatch map militia activity across the United States and assess the risk of violence before, during, and after the 2020 election. Access data directly through the **[US Crisis Monitor](https://acleddata.com/special-projects/us-crisis-monitor/)**\* . \*Definitions and methodology decisions are explained in the **[_US Crisis Monitor FAQs_](https://acleddata.com/download/23059/)** _and the **[US methodology brief](https://acleddata.com/download/25109/)**. For more information, please check the full_ [_ **ACLED Resource Library** _](https://acleddata.com/resources/general-guides/). [Download a PDF](https://acleddata.com/acleddatanew/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ACLEDMilitiaWatch_StandingByMilitiaGroups_2020Web.pdf) ## \ ***Executive Summary** Militia groups and other armed non-state actors pose a serious threat to the safety and security of American voters. Throughout the summer and leading up to the general election, these groups have become more assertive, with activities ranging from intervening in protests to organizing kidnapping plots targeting elected officials ([CNN, 13 October 2020](https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/13/us/kidnap-plot-governor-michigan-virginia/index.html)). Both the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have specifically identified extreme far right-wing and racist movements as a primary risk factor heading into November, describing the election as a potential “flashpoint” for reactionary violence ([The Nation, 30 September 2020](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/white-supremacist-boogaloo/); [New York Times, 6 October 2020](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/homeland-security-white-supremacists-russia.html)). [ACLED](https://www.acleddata.com/) collects and analyzes information about the actions of state, non-state, and sole perpetrator[1](javascript:void(0)) violence and demonstration activity. [MilitiaWatch](https://medium.com/militiawatch) tracks, documents, and analyzes contemporary US militia movements, and provides reports connecting long-term militia trends to broader political events. Pretty much every group but The Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC) is white supremacist and right wing. They dismiss Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/18 "2021-01-14T07:05:16Z")
How are they illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/19 "2021-01-14T09:25:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, those nuts are a tiny % of NRA gun nuts and the NRA only represents 5% of gunowners. So, you are talking about a fraction of a %, not " _so many"._ > > It is actually “damn few”. > > If “so many” of the 100 million gun owners in the USA decided to stage a insurrection, it’d be really nasty. > > Note that are two types of militias in the USA- the ones organized by states etc that are NOT National Guard (the NG is now part of the standing army) such as Texas, and the not organized, almost always far right and white supremacist. _They_ are about 80 groups, and around 30000 members, i.e. 3/100s of 1% of the total gun owners. The Texas State militia all by itself has almost that number of members alone. 3 out of 10000 gun owners are in a right wing militia. > > This is tantamount to asking why all the nations drivers always drive drunk. That’s quite a triggering. Do all gun owners claim they need guns to defend the Constitution against tyranny? Did I refer to all gun owners? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2021, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413/20 "2021-01-14T09:45:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So we have a segment of the population willing to overthrow the government because things didn’t go their way, and a sitting President openly encouraging them to do so. How are the many militia groups in the U.S. responding to this situation? Do the oppose it, or support it? Are they talking about taking up arms to stop it, or to stand beside them? I’m pretty sure they were involved in that “storming the castle” event on the 6th. I expect they’ll continue to look for opportunities to cause trouble, and if they can embed themselves amongst a herd of clueless White middle-class suburbanites so much the better from their viewpoint. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Not to suggest that these people aren’t dangerous individually, and that there won’t be sporadic violence on 20 January, but they just aren’t coordinated enough to do any permanent damage or overthrow state or federal governments. These groups have all been around for three decades or more and they rarely do more than talk big and drink cheap beer while playing solider on random weekends. True… except for [that one time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing) when someone inspired and probably (not sure it was proved to court standards) at least partially backed by those nutjobs did some real damage. We can only hope they sit around drinking beer and plinking in the woods. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that are two types of militias in the USA- the ones organized by states etc that are NOT National Guard (the NG is now part of the standing army) such as Texas, and the not organized, almost always far right and white supremacist. _They_ are about 80 groups, and around 30000 members, i.e. 3/100s of 1% of the total gun owners. The Texas State militia all by itself has almost that number of members alone. 3 out of 10000 gun owners are in a right wing militia. > > This is tantamount to asking why all the nations drivers always drive drunk. Drunk drivers kill about 10,000 people a year. And that’s unintentional. People plotting to kill other people could conceivably have a higher toll. It doesn’t take a large number of people to cause a lot of damage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-americas-militia-groups-responding-to-the-current-insurgency/930413.md?page=2)