# How are European nations 'less free' than the U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945 "2009-07-05T01:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/1 "2009-07-05T01:24:59Z")
**For the purposes of this thread, guns are ‘off the table’.** Please leave guns out of it. I often hear at Conservative-leaning message boards and from Conservatives in real life that American ‘freedoms’ are under attack. Obama is Stalin, the government is going to turn us into slaves, blahblahblah. An old acquaintance found my email address and started sending me email forwards. (I never get Liberal email forwards. All of the ones I get are from Conservatives, and they send A LOT of them! Fortunately they’ve mostly given up on me. Mostly.) He repeated the oft-heard claim that Americans are losing their ‘freedoms’, so I challenged him on it. I gave him a couple of off-the-cuff examples of how Europeans and Canadians have more ‘freedom’ than we do and asked him to provide counterexamples (excepting guns). His reply was basically, 'Well, you may have a point – a small point – but WE’RE LOSING OUR FREEDOMS! :eek: ’ So the debate is this: Except for guns (and yes, I know there are gun owners in Europe), how are the citizens of Western European nations less free than U.S. Americans? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/2 "2009-07-05T01:41:26Z")
They have to speak French and German and other unnatural languages. Since they are little kids they are forced to attend schools where they are brainwashed into speaking like that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/3 "2009-07-05T01:48:39Z")
There are restrictions on individual freedoms that Americans have. For example, the United Kingdom can legally censor the press, France prohibits some religious practices, Germany bans some political views, and Norway regulates what names you can give your children. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/4 "2009-07-05T01:58:04Z")
That, and also higher tax rates, which some would count as limiting freedom to spend what you earn. Also in general, labor markets are more rigid, meaning businesses make a long-term commitment whenever they hire someone. Sounds good, right? Problem is, when you can’t fire the bad workers, you’re much more careful about hiring, resulting in higher normal unemployment rates. Also this can create a “two-tiered” labor market, as in France. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/5 "2009-07-05T02:00:40Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > That, and also higher tax rates, which some would count as limiting freedom to spend what you earn. On the other hand, those taxes support things such as health care that you would have to pay for out-of-pocket if the taxes weren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/6 "2009-07-05T02:06:50Z")
Many Western European nations also have higher marginal tax rates than the US. The highest marginal US tax rate is 35%, and most western European nations have highest marginal tax rates from 40-50% (Denmark’s is 62%). So, in that sense, Americans, especially richer Americans, have more freedom to choose how to spend their income than Europeans. Along with that, most Western European countries have governments that provide more social services than the US (national health care, extended poverty and unemployment help, etc.) So, in that sense, the government has a more direct role in the lives of their citizens. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/7 "2009-07-05T02:08:14Z")
Less of a selection of certain consumer goods in supermarkets and other stores? This is more pronounced in some countries than others, and is not (to me) a big deal… ETA—This is probably not really much of an example such as Johnny L.A. was looking for. (sorry) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/8 "2009-07-05T02:09:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Along with that, most Western European countries have governments that provide more social services than the US (national health care, extended poverty and unemployment help, etc.) So, in that sense, the government has a more direct role in the lives of their citizens. So the higher taxes are offset by benefits the citizens receive. How do these benefits make the citizens less free? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/9 "2009-07-05T02:10:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > On the other hand, those taxes support things such as health care that you would have to pay for out-of-pocket if the taxes weren’t there. Which of course means you are more free to leave a job you hate, rather than staying because you need the medical benefits. One problem with this “America is the freest country in the world !” bit is that it always assumes that the government is the only thing that can take away freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/10 "2009-07-05T02:10:37Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Less of a selection of certain consumer goods in supermarkets? For example? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/11 "2009-07-05T02:14:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So the higher taxes are offset by benefits the citizens receive. How do these benefits make the citizens less free? If the government is taking care of them, that makes them less free, because it makes them dependent on the government to take care of their needs. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/12 "2009-07-05T02:15:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > For example? Its rare to see Czech beer for sale in the Netherlands, you dont usually find Dutch beer for sale in Germany… Thankfully each of the countries I mentioned seems to brew some mighty tasty suds in thier own rights!!! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/13 "2009-07-05T02:17:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If the government is taking care of them, that makes them less free, because it makes them dependent on the government to take care of their needs. How does it make them less free? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/14 "2009-07-05T02:25:50Z")
I would also point out their laws against holocaust denial which would be unthinkable restrictions on speech in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/15 "2009-07-05T02:29:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > How does it make them less free? Because, if you believe, like the writers of the e-mail do, that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and that people should be free to succeed or fail on their own merits, then expanding the role of the government and expanding the social safety net is dangerous, because it helps to isolate people from the consequences of their actions, and, by increasing the role of government, it makes them believe that it should be the role of the government to provide for their needs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/16 "2009-07-05T02:30:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If the government is taking care of them, that makes them less free, because it makes them dependent on the government to take care of their needs. That’s somehow “less free” than being crushed into poverty ? Or being dependent upon some employer ? What makes employers pushing you around more free than a government doing so ? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/17 "2009-07-05T02:38:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s somehow “less free” than being crushed into poverty ? Or being dependent upon some employer ? What makes employers pushing you around more free than a government doing so ? In my understanding, I’d think they would say that if you were pushed around by your employer, you’re free to quit and find a better job, and if you’re poor, you’re free to use your skills and talents to improve your life, but you’re not free to refuse to pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/18 "2009-07-05T02:39:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because, if you believe, like the writers of the e-mail do, that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and that people should be free to succeed or fail on their own merits, I follow you this far. I don’t agree with it, but I see the reasoning. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > then expanding the role of the government and expanding the social safety net is dangerous, because it helps to isolate people from the consequences of their actions, and, by increasing the role of government, it makes them believe that it should be the role of the government to provide for their needs. This does not follow. I understand what you’re saying: That if the government’s role (through expanding the safety net) is to provide services to people, then people will come to believe that the government’s role is to provide services to people. But what I don’t see is this: How does this make people less free? For example, most people believe that it is the role of government to build roads. (I haven’t seen anyone calling for the privatisation of all roads.) Does the government therefore take away our freedom to take Highway 99 through Central California instead of the 5? Does the government say, ‘Since we provide the roads, you have to go to Las Vegas before you can go to San Diego’? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/19 "2009-07-05T02:50:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In my understanding, I’d think they would say that if you were pushed around by your employer, you’re free to quit and find a better job, and if you’re poor, you’re free to use your skills and talents to improve your life, but you’re not free to refuse to pay taxes. In other words, they pretend that _potential_ loss of freedom from a government helping you is important, but _actual_ loss of freedom from anything else is not. They aren’t really pro-freedom ( the opposite, if anything ); they are just anti-government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/20 "2009-07-05T02:57:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Because, if you believe, like the writers of the e-mail do, that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and that people should be free to succeed or fail on their own merits, then expanding the role of the government and expanding the social safety net is dangerous, because it helps to isolate people from the consequences of their actions, and, by increasing the role of government, it makes them believe that it should be the role of the government to provide for their needs. Really this is stretching the definiton of freedom past the breaking point. Even if you accept the dubious premise that there is a freedom to fail, the government is not taking it away by offering a social safety network. Anyone who wants to fail can still choose not to accept the government handouts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945.md?page=2)