# How are European nations 'less free' than the U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945 "2009-07-05T01:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/181 "2009-07-11T12:27:48Z")
Due to lack of time I haven’t been able to read all the way through the thread so if I’m repeating earlier posts then my apologies. The main things where I find that Americans are less free then Europeans are that if you wish to be elected to any major office in the U.S. you must either be personally wealthy or have the backing of those who are. Numbers of votes are less important then the numbers of Dollar bills at the very start as you can’t even stand for office if you lack those. This means that your political policies must first be screened by the wealthy before they even have the chance to be put to the electorate as a whole. The second is company health insurance,losing your job means losing your health care. Gives the employers a pretty big whip to crack over their employees. Sorry Bob we have a bit of a crisis,sorry its short notice but can you work late tonight?We cant pay you I’m afraid but… Much as I love America and Americans(And have been a frequent visitor there) I have to say in all honesty that Americans are a lot less free in any real meanuing of the word then the citizens of Europe. You can kiss your chains and praise them but they’re still chains no matter how dark the glasses that you’re wearing. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/182 "2009-07-12T07:10:34Z")
Going to have to add[this story](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_us/us_upside_down_flag)(from this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=524104)). As one of many examples of the US being “less free” than the UK. That simply wouldn’t happen in the UK (actually theoretically flying a Union Jack upside down is a secret distress call, but I don’t thing many coppers would catch that 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/183 "2009-07-12T16:35:00Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I am sure you are just as incredulous and demand statute number and verse when similar news comes out of France or North Korea. Right? Or is it only when the news article refers to America? > > Unless the article is lying, and I presume it is not and it would be your responsibility to prove otherwise, the guy was jailed for airing Hezbollah TV. I do not care much about how the statute is worded but about the fact that he was jailed for disseminating opinions. Maybe that was interpreted as aiding the enemy, I don’t know, but I am pretty sure that if the same thing happened in China you would be condemning it. I don’t think anyone is linking to specific news articles about China or France, what you’re doing is attempting to excuse your complete lack of fact checking by changing the goal posts. The reason it is important to have the statute number is the United States is a country of laws, and if someone can be arrested solely for disseminating opinion then there is going to be a law on the books to reflect that. The fact that you have not been able to produce one gives me a strong inclination to believe you are just simply inclined to bash the United States. For the record if France or China arrested someone for broadcasting terrorist recruitment media in a for-profit deal with entities that French/Chinese nationals are legally prohibited from having business dealings with I probably would not be condemning them at all. I like that you jump to conclusions about how I would react to things, though. If you want to have a serious debate lets keep it on the specific topic you brought up, and not bring up irrelevant asides about other countries. If this man was truly arrested for what you say he was, give me statutory proof, otherwise you’re just going off of your personal interpretation of the news article. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/184 "2009-07-12T16:46:22Z")
I’ve done a little bit of research myself since **sailor** hadn’t bothered when he made his initial claims. According to this release from the U.S. Treasury Department ([link](http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/js4134.htm)) U.S. nationals and business entities are prohibited from having _financial transactions_ with al Manar, al Nour, and the Lebenese Media Group. It appears this is under the authority of an executive order that can prohibit financial dealings with entities designated as “terrorist.” I see nothing in the text of this that makes me believe any of these media outlets are “banned” or that you would go to jail just for broadcasting their content. While I need more information to say for sure, I suspect that if I maintained a website entirely on my own initiative that broadcast this stuff, and I had no financial ties to any of these entities I’d be perfectly in the clear. The man who was arrested (and plead guilty) was accused of having significant financial interactions with al Manar, and was accused of being paid more than $20,000 on a monthly basis by al Manar to broadcast their material. Isn’t it the common cry that “money isn’t speech” by people on these forums? I don’t think the man who was arrested got in trouble for exercising his first amendment rights but for deciding to profit off of a business relationship with an entity that U.S. residents are legally prohibited from carrying on a business relationship with. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/185 "2009-07-12T17:51:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The man who was arrested (and plead guilty) was accused of having significant financial interactions with al Manar, and was accused of being paid more than $20,000 on a monthly basis by al Manar to broadcast their material. As I stated in a previous post. He plead guilty to “providing support” to a terrorist organization in exchange for that money. The only “support” he provided was broadcasting their opinions. I find it hard to believe it would perfectly OK legally speaking to “provide support” to terrorists for free. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/186 "2009-07-12T18:14:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > He plead guilty to “providing support” to a terrorist organization in exchange for that money. The only “support” he provided was broadcasting their opinions. Well, no. He apparently gave the group thousands of dollars which is pretty much the core idea of material support. Moreover, the statute in question has an explicit exemption for activities that would otherwise constitute material support but which are protected by the First Amendment ("Nothing in this section shall be construed or applied so as to abridge the exercise of rights guaranteed under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States,” 18 U.S.C. 2339B(i)). So if he were prosecuted for the broadcast alone, he or his lawyer would have to have been an idiot in order to enter a guilty plea. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/187 "2009-07-13T15:52:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Well, no. He apparently gave the group thousands of dollars which is pretty much the core idea of material support. He received money, he didn’t give them any. The [FBI website](http://newyork.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel09/nyfo062309.htm) is quite explicit: > [@](#): > > From approximately 2005 through 2006, ELAHWAL, through a Brooklyn and Staten Island-based satellite transmission company he helped operate, HDTV Limited, **provided satellite transmission services to al-Manar** , in exchange for thousands of dollars in payments from al-Manar. ELAHWAL provided these services knowing that al-Manar is Hizballah’s television station. The “support” he provided was in the form of transmitting the opinions of a terrorist organization. Yes, he may well have been committing a crime just by receiving their cash, but what he plead guilty to was providing “support” in exchange for that cash. And the support wasn’t guns, or bombs, it was the broadcasting of images and sound. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/188 "2009-07-13T15:55:31Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > He received money, he didn’t give them any. My mistake. My point goes to the larger issue though. The statute expressly exempts First Amendment activity from the definition of support. So either there’s something going on here beyond what we know, or he had a terrible lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/189 "2009-07-14T21:51:26Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > That, and also higher tax rates, which some would count as limiting freedom to spend what you earn. This is SUCH a ired argument, I don’t understand why people keep using it. The only people it convinces are people who already believe that taxation is a form of theft rather than a civic obligation. > [@](#): > > Also in general, labor markets are more rigid, meaning businesses make a long-term commitment whenever they hire someone. Sounds good, right? Problem is, when you can’t fire the bad workers, you’re much more careful about hiring, resulting in higher normal unemployment rates. Also this can create a “two-tiered” labor market, as in France. This is probably true but once again, you are are kinda stretching the definition of freedom. France also has a pretty robust universal health care system and the pensions in Europe are generally fully funded so they don’t go bankrupt as often as ours. With all that said, I agree that 2 years of unemployment payments is too much. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/190 "2009-07-14T21:53:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If the government is taking care of them, that makes them less free, because it makes them dependent on the government to take care of their needs. So our military must be shackling us into security slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/191 "2009-07-14T21:55:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because, if you believe, like the writers of the e-mail do, that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and that people should be free to succeed or fail on their own merits, then expanding the role of the government and expanding the social safety net is dangerous, because it helps to isolate people from the consequences of their actions, and, by increasing the role of government, it makes them believe that it should be the role of the government to provide for their needs. If government is AT BEST a necessary evil, perhaps we should get rid of it altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/192 "2009-07-14T21:57:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In my understanding, I’d think they would say that if you were pushed around by your employer, you’re free to quit and find a better job, and if you’re poor, you’re free to use your skills and talents to improve your life, but you’re not free to refuse to pay taxes. Aren’t you also free to move to a country with less government and lower taxes? What in the world keeps these people here. Monaco has a ZERO tax rate, why don’t they all move there? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/193 "2009-07-14T21:59:49Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > So the notion that America is freer is just bullshit. There may be particular things which are prohibited here or there but the notion that America is “the freest country in the world” is just bullshit propaganda. > > Tell me what you boast and I’ll tell you what you lack and all that. I totally Agree, America is NOT the freest country in the wrold, it is only the greatest country in the world (probably in history). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/194 "2009-07-14T22:27:36Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Because they don’t have a choice, dude. If they think the product the government is offering them sucks, they can’t take their money and go somewhere else. The government already has their money, and there is nowhere else. You can leave the country if you don’t like it. I have an Iphone, I hate the fact that I have to use AT&T instead of Verizon but I have the freedom to go back to AT&T and get a phone I don’t particularly want. [quote] Licensing hurdles to start a business are also staggering in Europe. It is practically impossible to start a bank in Spain, for example.[/quoute] How many of those banks have failed? > **[Expatica Spain: The largest online resource for expats](https://www.expatica.com/es/)** > > We offer the information and resources you need for living abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/195 "2009-07-14T22:28:47Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Education is another area- We have more self directed opportunities for higher ed. We do not have tracking in the same sense, and more opportunities to move from school to school. Community Colleges help studnets who want to change careers or who weren’t “college material” in high school and want to change teh track of their lives. Isn’t higher education free in much of Europe? I was also under the impression that there was a pretty vibrant private school system in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/196 "2009-07-14T22:29:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Often government works to protect the interests of the powerful at the expense of the interests of the weak. Yeah, but that’s not why the Grover Norquist crowd are against taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/197 "2009-07-14T22:35:10Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > In my experience Americans and Europeans are often talking past each other on this question, with Americans emphasizing the “freedom to” and Europeans emphasizing the “freedom from.” The two strike me as being very different (and largely contradictory) concepts and shouldn’t be equated. > **[Four Freedoms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms)** > > The Four Freedoms were goals articulated by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Monday, January 6, 1941. In an address known as the Four Freedoms speech (technically the 1941 State of the Union address), he proposed four fundamental freedoms that people "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy: > Roosevelt delivered his speech 11 months before the surprise Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, which caused the United States to declare war on Japan on December 8, 1941. The State of the Union spee... Two of these four freedoms are “freedoms from” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/198 "2009-07-14T22:37:26Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I meant trivial in the sense that - with the exception of restrictions on same-sex marriage, which you introduced, not me - you can pretty much find a way to do the other things I mentioned…even if they’re technically illegal, and get away with it most of the time. People can cheat on their taxes and get away with it most of the time too. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/199 "2009-07-14T22:42:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Anyone can invent “freedoms” and then play word games to justify anything they want as a “freedom”. I think the government should pay for my health care because otherwise my freedom from being sick is infringed. One kinda far left “freedom” you encounter is the pro-choice argument that we should require trained doctors to perform legal abotrions because the refusal of so many doctors restricts my “FREEDOM TO” have an abortion. You can phrase anything as a freedom to or freedom from is you twist the words enough. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/200 "2009-07-14T22:46:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If government is AT BEST a necessary evil, perhaps we should get rid of it altogether. Isn’t it odd how some people consider not starving to death success? I guess conservatives have a very low success threshold, which makes sense when you consider what they call a successful governor or president. Me, I figure the average unemployed welfare recipient doesn’t consider himself or herself much of a success. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945.md?page=11)