# How are European nations 'less free' than the U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945 "2009-07-05T01:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/201 "2009-07-14T22:48:44Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > But they’re not both “freedom” if that term is to have any practical use. Unless you can come up with a definition for freedom that neatly includes both concepts? I think when we talk about freedoms we SHOUOLD be talking about basic freedoms. IMHO, most talk about freedoms from government become mooted as soon as you give everyone the vote. THE ONLY people who can seriosuly bitch and moan about freedom from taxes are the folks living in Washington DC who do not have any representation in congress (BTW congress rules DC like a communal fiefdom, no wonder its so screwed up). When we talk about freedom, we talk about the freedoms that we must maintain in the face of a popularly elected government. What freedoms must we maintain no matter who is in power and regardless of how dire the circumstances? Freedom of speech comes to mind (the ability to criticize the president (something that a lot of democracies do not have, in some countries, its treasonous to criticize elected officials) but freedom from taxes just seems like a bunch of people whining about paying too much tax. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/202 "2009-07-14T22:50:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > “Freedom from” is essentially a useless concept to me. Freedom from taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/203 "2009-07-14T22:51:59Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Maybe it boils down to this: > > In the USA, enterprising individuals have a lot of freedom, even to exploit other individuals; > in Europe, the masses have more freedom from being exploited by enterprising individuals. I would put a star next to this post if I could. When it comes to economic freedoms, you are basically picking your poison and finding the balance that works best in your society. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/204 "2009-07-14T22:59:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I understand the position. But that position is, in my opinion, largely based on religious belief. Not to take this hijack any further (but I guess I’m about to); isn’t there serious room for debate about when human life begins? A zygote? Probably not but when the baby starts kicking, maybe so. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/205 "2009-07-14T23:08:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We’ve also locked people up in camps who we felt might be sympathizers with the enemy > That’s not really very similar to what happened with the guy in your article. You mean like japanese internment camps? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/206 "2009-07-14T23:12:27Z")
> [@Marienee](#): > > No. The crime he pled guilty to was providing material support to hezbollah in its recruiting and money raising efforts in exchange for money. > > Receiving money from terrorists for helping them recruit baby terrorists and and raise money to pay for their terrorist activities is as illegal as giving money to terrorists, yes. But providing those baby terrorist recruiting baby terrorist recruiters that same help for free is OK? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/207 "2009-07-14T23:15:58Z")
> [@NoSuchThingAsAFreeLunch](#): > > Certainly all systems have corruption, “unfairness”, and abuses. Yet America with some of the lower taxes, and highest level of economic freedom, is consistently highly ranked by [freedomhouse.org](http://freedomhouse.org) in its annual report. Then why do people keep complaining about how high taxes are here. BTW, I find the attitude that each individual should get services from government in some proportion to what they pay in taxes absolutely reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/208 "2009-07-14T23:18:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Does this take into account wages, productivity, savings to businesses, revenue generated by more productive workers, etc.? Its a pretty accurate statistic. What it doesn’t take into account is payroll taxes, sales taxes; state taxes. But even if you iclude all that the rich pay a higher tax rate than the poor. So if you are against progressive taxation then this should really piss you off but if you believe that the tax burden should be distributed progressively then you just sneer at the whiners. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/209 "2009-07-14T23:25:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When you are hungry enough, food is more important than free speech. I thought that was how everyone kept their kids in line. Or is it just me? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/210 "2009-07-14T23:35:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Aren’t you also free to move to a country with less government and lower taxes? What in the world keeps these people here. Monaco has a ZERO tax rate, why don’t they all move there? Uh, no, not really. How many countries openly allow anyone to go live there? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Freedom from taxes? Yes, a useless concept. Trying to couch everything in these “freedom” terms is just an attempt to use language to control the discussion. It’s like how instead of having plans to deal with drug abuse and poverty, we have to have a WAR ON DRUGS and WAR ON POVERTY. It’s using language to frame the debate in such a way as to crowd out actual discussion. In this case, people are simply trying to wrap up what they think is simply good policy in terms of a fundamental human right. Btw, I’d suggest you stop creating posts so prolifically. Making 10+ in a row makes you look weird. If you have that much to say, you can wrap multiple replies into one post. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/211 "2009-07-15T00:54:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Btw, I’d suggest you stop creating posts so prolifically. Making 10+ in a row makes you look weird. If you have that much to say, you can wrap multiple replies into one post. Specifically, if one clicks on the icon on the bottom of a post that has large quotation marks on the top, one can then scroll to subsequent posts doing the same thing, finally clicking on the Quote button only for the final quoted post. At that point, the Reply screen will pop up with all the quoted posts listed in order. ---
**Author:** ![wizard\_of\_aus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecc23a/32.png) [@wizard\_of\_aus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wizard_of_aus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/212 "2009-07-15T08:15:24Z")
… do you want the long answer or the short answer ?? … the short answer, _“They’re not.”_… the long answer, _“The people of Europe do not have fewer freedoms than Americans.”_ … in other words it is all swings and roundabouts … and of course the personal perspectives of the peoples of the respective countries … your _freedom_ is my constriction … my _freedom_ you don’t appreciate … WoAus who is free ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945/213 "2009-08-10T17:35:05Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > As Brit living in the states, I’d really say Britain is certainly not “less free” than the US. Obviously if you think the be-all and end-all of freedom is the right to have guns, and low taxes, then yeah the US is more free. But in most every-day ways, its clearly not. An example of this just came up, so I thought I’d bump this thread: > [@](#): > > A 34-YEAR-OLD woman, the mother of a 12-year-old girl, has been locked up in a Virginia jail for three weeks and could remain there for at least another month. Her crime? Blogging about the police. > > Elisha Strom, who appears unable to make the $750 bail, was arrested outside Charlottesville on July 16 when police raided her house, confiscating notebooks, computers and camera equipment. Although the Charlottesville police chief, Timothy J. Longo Sr., had previously written to Ms. Strom warning her that her blog posts were interfering with the work of a local drug enforcement task force, she was not charged with obstruction of justice or any similar offense. Rather, she was indicted on a single count of identifying a police officer with intent to harass, a felony under state law. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/09/AR2009080902126.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/09/AR2009080902126.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-european-nations-less-free-than-the-u-s/501945.md?page=10)