# How are orphans named in Iceland or Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764 "2009-05-08T17:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/1 "2009-05-08T17:06:16Z")
For some reason this question popped into my brain last night while I was in bed trying to get to sleep. And like any rational person my next thought was “Well, I guess I’ll post it on SDMB tomorrow.” Iceland and Russia both have naming systems that used the father’s name as part of the child’s name. In Iceland, you have a name like Olafur Grimsson - a man named Olaf whose father was named Grim. In Russia, you have a name like Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev - a man named Dmitry whose father was named Anatoly. So what happens if the child is an orphan or illegitimate child whose father is unknown? Do they just make up a father’s name for him to use or is there some generic alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/2 "2009-05-08T17:29:32Z")
Per my Russian wife: they make something up based on a person of importance in the child’s life (e.g., adopting father, orphanoriam director, mother’s father), but it’s really up to the people filling out the forms – whoever is giving the first name got to decide that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/3 "2009-05-08T18:22:38Z")
I do remember that illegitimate children with unknown father were at one time given a matronymic (Sven Ingridsson, Dmitry Natalievich Medvedev where Dnitry is Nataliya Medvedeva’s illegitimate son). I suspect this custom is long out of date, but offer the information for what it’s worth historically. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/4 "2009-05-08T18:35:46Z")
The Wikipedia article on Icelandic names has a section on [Matronymic naming as a choice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name#Matronymic_naming_as_a_choice), where it suggests that it can be used for various reasons apart from the father being unknown. For example, Dagur Bergþóruson Eggertsson is named after both of his parents. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/5 "2009-05-08T19:48:17Z")
Polycarp and Giles are both correct with regards to Iceland. If the father is “unknown”, the kid gets the mother’s name. If it’s a complete orphan, I honestly can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/6 "2009-05-08T20:51:01Z")
Last year we were at the local Epiphany Eve parade (january 5th), in a town in Spain; kindergarten children taught by one of my friends were part of the parade. Someone asked “where did y’all get that one, so blonde?” “oh, her name is Katryn Nataliovna :D” “ah, an import… Russian?” “Ukranian.” Unknown or irresponsible father, we don’t know and don’t care; the patronimic for that kid is her matronimic. (And has been changed to protect the innocent, eh) ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/7 "2009-05-08T21:34:52Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > orphanoriam What was it on The Simpsons about -arium making anything more fun? ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/8 "2009-05-09T00:57:19Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The Wikipedia article on Icelandic names has a section on [Matronymic naming as a choice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name#Matronymic_naming_as_a_choice), where it suggests that it can be used for various reasons apart from the father being unknown. For example, Dagur Bergþóruson Eggertsson is named after both of his parents. Historically, one other such reason was if the mother was of a higher status than the father, for example [Svend Estridsen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_II_of_Denmark), a king of Denmark, whose mother was a princess (or, at least, the daughter of a king - I’m not sure the term “princess” was used in Denmark at the time) while his father was an earl. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/9 "2009-05-09T01:38:28Z")
In the north Snow, in other places Flowers, Rivers… ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/10 "2009-05-09T01:42:45Z")
There’s a nifty livejournal community called little\_details with lots of information on Russian naming practices. This exact question was asked, and the Russians and Russian-speakers replied that the child’s name would vary depending on the time period and circumstances. Someone on little\_details asked if an orphan might be named after a saint, but according to the Russian posters, if the child were born during the Soviet period this would be unlikely. A foundling in the Soviet period might have been named Vladimir Ilyich Neizvestny (Neizvestny means “unknown”). If the child’s father was unknown, the mother’s patronymic might be passed down to her child (eg. Vladimir Ivanovich Sidorov, illegitimate son of Maria Ivanova Sidorova). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/11 "2009-05-09T01:49:39Z")
I realize illegitimacy isn’t as big a deal as it once was and I don’t know if there’s any stigma attached to it in Iceland or Russia. But I’m surprised by the use of matronymics as a substitute for patronymics for that reason alone. If you’re an American named John Smith nobody’s going to know your parents’ marital status from that. But if you’re Olaf Ingridson or Ivan Katerinovich your name essentially identifies you for life as a child whose father wasn’t in the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/12 "2009-05-09T03:16:05Z")
To expand the question, I know that Spaniards and people from some other Spanish-influenced countries get both their mother and father’s last names. What is done when one of the parents is unknown? Do they just get the other parent’s last names transferred to them – basically **Mississippienne** ’s example? I see **Nava** ’s been here, presumably she knows. > [@gigi](#): > > What was it on The Simpsons about -arium making anything more fun? I don’t remember _The Simpsons_ doing this, but _Futurama_’s Leela does come from an “Orphanarium”. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/13 "2009-05-09T04:08:37Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I don’t remember _The Simpsons_ doing this, but _Futurama_’s Leela does come from an “Orphanarium”. I believe **gigi** is referring to [this episode](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Little_Wiggy): Lisa: What a whimsical building. Who says science can’t be fun? Bart: Me. I smell a museum. Homer: Yeah, good things don’t end with -eum. They end with -mania. Or -teria. – “This Little Wiggy” ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/14 "2009-05-09T07:05:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But if you’re Olaf Ingridson or Ivan Katerinovich your name essentially identifies you for life as a child whose father wasn’t in the picture. Not so in the case of Olaf Ingridsson; at one time that would have been true, but not today. His parents may have had any number of personal reasons for choosing a matronymic over a patronymic. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/15 "2009-05-09T07:46:22Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > To expand the question, I know that Spaniards and people from some other Spanish-influenced countries get both their mother and father’s last names. What is done when one of the parents is unknown? Do they just get the other parent’s last names transferred to them – basically **Mississippienne** ’s example? I see **Nava** ’s been here, presumably she knows. If both parents are unknown, they’d often be given a saint’s name (often including the “santo”) or a lastname meaning foundling (Expósito). Other common sources for saint’s-names-as-lastnames was people named after a town which in turn was named after a saint (Santo Domingo de la Calzada for example, someone who moved from there to another town could end up with the lastname Santodomingo) or converted Jews. If the father is unknown or irresponsible, usually the kid would just get his mother’s lastnames. We only use those first two, normally, but you inherit the whole row (my dad knew his first 32 lastnames by heart, I only reach 8 because the maternal side of my family didn’t bother remember further). So a kid whose father wasn’t willing to hand down the inheritance of lastnames wouldn’t have paternal lastnames to interlock with the maternal ones. A cousin of mine has an illegitimate child, not because he wasn’t interested in marrying the mother, but because the mother was the kind of woman who give welfare recipients the world over a bad name. Grandmother was crying when she heard she’d just become an “unmarried great-grandmother,” but when she heard that it was the woman who didn’t want to marry and was refusing to let my cousin give his lastname to the kidlette in order to get welfare (as a single mother she could claim it, but not if the father was known and living with her… as was the true case) - boy it’s a good thing France stands between Spain and Germany, cos she went from being in tears to being on the warpath. That kid, who’s German, got her mother’s lastname. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/16 "2009-05-09T11:06:33Z")
A few people seem to be assuming an orphan’s parentage would somehow be unknown. Well, if Thor Odinson’s father dies when little Thor is 8 Thor would still have the patronymic Odinson. His father is still known, just deceased. If the kid is an orphan and the father unknown, well, he’d have his mother’s name, right? The only time it’s really an issue is if the kid is abandoned as an infant. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/17 "2009-05-09T12:35:28Z")
At the end of _Dr. Zhivago_, Yuri & Lara’s daughter Tania was given a surname meaning “Fatherless.” The locals turned it into “Out-of-Turn,” which apparently is very similar to their word for Fatherless. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/18 "2009-05-09T13:19:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > We only use those first two, normally, but you inherit the whole row (my dad knew his first 32 lastnames by heart, I only reach 8 because the maternal side of my family didn’t bother remember further). Let us not perpetuate erroneous stereotypes. You “inherit the whole row” just like anyone else in any other culture “inherits the whole row”. No more and no less. Legally it is of no significance. In Spain your legal name is composed of (1) Given name, (2) first family name and (3) second family name. Each can be simple or compound. Legally that is exactly the structure of the name and there is no more names. But also no less as I am reminded every time I try to use only my first family name. Spanish people have a thing for bureaucracy like no other and you _have_ to give your full name, ID number etc and then you _have_ to sign some forms saying you give that information voluntarily and you acknowledge whan can and cannot be done with it etc. And that is just for buying a stick of gum. If you want a filling in your right hind tooth you need even more papers. The amount of bureaucracy in Spain is just surreal. But, getting back to names, the first family name is customarily, but not always, the father’s first family name and the second family name is customarily but not always the mother’s first family name. There are plenty of instances of people using the mother’s name first or other combinations. This refers to the way things are now. Historically there were no set rules and people used family names, place names, or whatever they fancied. > [@Nava](#): > > So a kid whose father wasn’t willing to hand down the inheritance of lastnames wouldn’t have paternal lastnames to interlock with the maternal ones. I am not sure what this means or how a father “hands down” the inheritance of last names. I am sure this is quite a complex legal issue but these days it’s not like a father can easily disappear if the mother insists on his obligations. But traditionally, yes, the child would just be given the mother’s last names. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/19 "2009-05-09T16:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > A few people seem to be assuming an orphan’s parentage would somehow be unknown. Well, if Thor Odinson’s father dies when little Thor is 8 Thor would still have the patronymic Odinson. His father is still known, just deceased. If the kid is an orphan and the father unknown, well, he’d have his mother’s name, right? > > The only time it’s really an issue is if the kid is abandoned as an infant. I didn’t want to get bogged down in details. I figured it would be obvious from the context of the question that I was asking about children whose parents were unknown. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764/20 "2009-05-09T17:48:36Z")
In place of “orphan”, substitute “foundling”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-orphans-named-in-iceland-or-russia/495764.md?page=2)