# How are the Clinton hating dems feeling now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862 "2022-06-25T22:15:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/241 "2022-07-06T01:24:22Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > We have an electoral system that has allowed the overall minority vote winner to win 3 POTUS elections out of the last 6. I’ve repeatedly said the Democrats need to make voting rights a top campaign issue. We should establish four clear principals into law (preferably into the Constitution). 1. Equality: Everyone’s vote counts the same. 2. Democracy: The person who gets the most votes wins the election. 3. Right to Vote: No adult citizen can be disenfranchised except through a completed personal due process procedure. 4. Transparency: All aspects of the voting process must be open to public review. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/242 "2022-07-06T01:39:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We should establish four clear principals into law (preferably into the Constitution). There’s no “preferably” about it. The only way to get 1-3 is through an amendment (aside from the extremely remote possibility of the [NPVIC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact)). The electoral college is baked into the Constitution. And, well, it seems farfetched that 3/4 of the states would agree to a dramatic decrease in their voting power. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/243 "2022-07-06T01:53:16Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > There’s no “preferably” about it. The only way to get 1-3 is through an amendment (aside from the extremely remote possibility of the [NPVIC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact)). The electoral college is baked into the Constitution. And, well, it seems farfetched that 3/4 of the states would agree to a dramatic decrease in their voting power. I’d say voting rights would be possible without an amendment (although I would prefer it to see it in the constitution). But while I feel these are important principles we need to enact, I feel they can also serve as a strong campaign issue. The Democrats need to take the high ground and put the Republicans on the defensive. When we say we’re in favor of democracy, equality, and a right to vote, let the Republicans flounder around trying to explain why they oppose them. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/244 "2022-07-06T02:01:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think your math is off. Oops, indeed so. Should be 2 out of 6, which is still 2 too many for a supposedly functional democracy ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/245 "2022-07-06T02:03:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d say voting rights would be possible without an amendment (although I would prefer it to see it in the constitution). I don’t see how. The Constitution gives states the right to choose their electoral votes at will. Any given state could ignore the popular vote completely if they wished. The Constitution does say you can’t discriminate based on race, sex, or age, but a state could simply deny everyone’s vote equally. You could pass laws state-by-state. And maybe that’s pretty reasonable (without checking, I’d guess many states have done so already). And maybe pushing for amendments to fix 1-2 would be valuable in spite of being hopeless. That seems like a waste of political capital to me but I’d be willing to be convinced otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/246 "2022-07-06T02:10:30Z")
If we’re going to go there, NPVIC is more achievable than a constitutional amendment. There’s obviously the problem with the NPVIC that even after achieving it, 1 or 2 states could repeal it and we’d go back to the system we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/247 "2022-07-06T02:25:38Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The Constitution gives states the right to choose their electoral votes at will. Or at least it did until the 14th amendment, which guarantees the right of all male citizens over 21 (later amended to all citizens over 18) to vote for electors. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/248 "2022-07-06T02:40:54Z")
It’s a little ambiguous. It just gives the right to vote for the electors, not to demand they cast their electoral vote in a particular way. That most states use a winner-take-all allocation while a few use proportional representation demonstrates the lack of a clear meaning. Not to mention the existence of faithless electors. Different states may or may not punish faithless electors. If 14 section 2 had a “strong” meaning in this sense, it would make the NPVIC illegal. Which might be the case, but I’m not sure this would be the determining factor. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/249 "2022-07-06T02:54:36Z")
I really, really dislike Clinton. But I voted for her, because I really, really, really dislike(-ed) Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/250 "2022-07-06T03:43:05Z")
Didn’t the Supreme Court recently rule that the electors must vote how the state government directs? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/251 "2022-07-06T03:51:14Z")
Only if the state government requires them to. > **[Chiafalo v. Washington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiafalo_v._Washington)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Chiafalo v. Washington, 591 U.S. \_\_\_ (2020), was a United States Supreme Court case on the issue of "faithless electors" in the Electoral College stemming from the 2016 United States presidential election. The Court ruled unanimously, by a vote of 8–0, that states have the ability to enforce an elector's pledge in presidential elections. Chiafalo deals with electors who received US$1,000 fines for not voting for the nominees of their party in the... ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/252 "2022-07-06T03:55:56Z")
Thanks. Still a BS decision. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/253 "2022-07-06T15:39:55Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Centrist Democrats are actively out to vilify the progressive caucus of their own party rather than take heed and act aggressively to defend democracy from the GOP. _e.g._ this very thread. Nah, just the ones who sat home\* or voted third party in 2016, and those who encouraged others to do so. And it’s less vilification, and more disappointment. I don’t quite get the point of the persecution complex, I thought that was more of a Republican thing. If you refused to vote for Clinton in 2016, you have two choices. Recognize that you were in the wrong, realize that what is happening is partly your fault, and make damn sure you don’t make the same mistake again, or you can get defensive, insist that you were right and it’s everyone’s fault but yours, and scream that you are being vilified at the top of your lungs. Unfortunately for the future of our country, quite a number seem to be taking the second option. \*and the caveat so you don’t spend another several paragraphs taking me to task over something you inferred from what I said, “Those who sat home, and could have voted easily.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/254 "2022-07-06T15:49:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Your system is fundamentally broken: any system where the results of the election hinge on a statistically insignificant number of voters in less than a handful of states is system not fit for purpose. Take it up with the founders. Maybe we can get the electoral college replaced with something less broken, but it’s not something that we can do anything about in the short run. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You are allowed to vote third-party. You are allowed to vote for either party. You are allowed to sit home and not vote at all. Sure you are. If you weren’t, what would be the point of elections? That’s probably the stupidest point I’ve ever seen anyone make anywhere. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You aren’t entitled to everyone’s vote. And in a system as broken and open to gamification as the American system is: then you have to go out and fight for every last vote you can get. Right, no one is entitled to anyone’s vote. The same as no voter is entitled to their perfect candidate. If someone waits until their perfect candidate comes around before they are willing to vote for the candidate that is preferable to the one they are running against, then that person no longer is participating in the democratic process. They are now participating in the “wishing for a pony” process. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And what is becoming more obvious now than ever before is just how little fight the Democrats have in them. That’s the second stupidest thing I’ve seen. How do you fight for a vote that someone refuses to give? Someone like @SmartAleq had decided before the nomination that she would _never_ vote for Clinton. How much harder should the Democrats have fought to get her vote? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well I hope you’ve got a better plan for what is coming than just “vote blue no matter who.” Do you have a plan that is better than just hoping? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/255 "2022-07-06T15:52:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But the fact that voter suppression happened is a reason why many people ended up not voting. Which makes those who were not suppressed, those who had easy access to the polls, who abdicated their democratic responsibility all that much stupider. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/256 "2022-07-06T15:58:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > {…} They are now participating in the “wishing for a pony” process. {…} Typical centrist Democrat gaslighting! All progressives are quite reasonably asking for is a flying unicorn and here you are trying to pawn off a pony on them! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/257 "2022-07-06T15:59:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Take it up with the founders. Maybe we can get the electoral college replaced with something less broken, but it’s not something that we can do anything about in the short run. …you mean those long-dead-white-dudes that most Americans worship? Perhaps maybe the constitution shouldn’t be treated like some sacred text? That the founders should never have been elevated to godhood? Anyway: that isn’t my problem. That’s YOUR problem. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s probably the stupidest point I’ve ever seen anyone make anywhere. Not really. Not when people are attacked for exercising their democratic right to do what they think is right. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, no one is entitled to anyone’s vote. I’m glad you agree with me. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s the second stupidest thing I’ve seen. LOL. That’s **two** of the stupidest things you’ve ever seen. Both from me. I’ll wear that as a badge of honour. I thank you. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you have a plan that is better than just hoping? Sure. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Which makes those who were not suppressed, those who had easy access to the polls, who abdicated their democratic responsibility all that much stupider. Well, I’m glad you got that off your chest. Feeling better now? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/258 "2022-07-06T16:10:52Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > but he would inspire a lot of people who are apathetic because they know democrats aren’t actually going to enact any good policies to actually get out and vote. So, these voters were against Roe v Wade? Everyone knew what was on the line. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > A significant fraction of this thread is talking about how non-voters are the big problem, but it’s not that hard to understand why people would be apathetic towards voting if they felt as though neither party would actually ever do anything to meaningfully help them. And the other half is you complaining that voters are the problem. Clinton had more votes in the primary, if that doesn’t matter to you, then you are against the democratic process in the first place. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > If all of the democrats who voted for Clinton in the primary voted for Sanders in the general (and they would be good little soldiers, right? After all, voting democrat no matter what is what everyone in this thread is saying is everyone’s moral duties) You say that like you think you have a point. Sure, pretty much anyone who voted for Clinton in the general would have voted for Bernie had he been the nominee. Your “little soldiers” attempt at an insult just shows how contemptuous you are of democracy when you don’t get your way. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Sanders brought in new voters, that’s potentially a better ticket than someone who democratic party loyalists (who are voting democrat no matter what) picked within their primary but who does not have a lot of appeal outside of that group. And how many moderates and centrists would he have lost due to being a self avowed socialist? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I also think people massively underestimate the degree to which people were sick of the direction the country is going and were willing to throw the dice on someone who seemed like they weren’t part of the shitty system that got us this far. And how did that work out for you? Do you _like_ the direction the country is going in? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The primary system favoring party insiders is exactly the sort of shit that got us Clinton, a uniquely terrible candidate, and eventually lead us to Trump. So, what do you want to replace it with? Should we just let you decide from now on? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I can’t fucking believe there are people today, still, who are delusional enough to think that Clinton was somehow the right choice in 2016, and somehow it’s the fault of progressive voters (who almost all voted for Clinton) that she lost. No, it’s the fault of anyone who did not vote for Clinton, or who discouraged others from voting for Clinton. This attempt at pulling in the entire progressive wing to join you in your martyrdom is pretty disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/259 "2022-07-06T16:15:51Z")
No one is “entitled” to your vote, but if anyone who votes 3rd party or doesn’t vote should just own the fact that something like picking 3 ideologically aligned SCOTUS judges wasn’t important enough to them to take a meaningful action in the election. Everyone is free to vote however the hell they want, just don’t blame anyone else for pointing out the consequences of that action or inaction. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862/260 "2022-07-06T16:31:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > you mean those long-dead-white-dudes that most Americans worship? > > Perhaps maybe the constitution shouldn’t be treated like some sacred text? That the founders should never have been elevated to godhood? Okay, you are in competition with yourself on the stupidest utterances ever vomited onto a screen. No one has elevated them to godhood here, and in fact, anyone not as stupid as you would have seen my post as being critical of their choices in writing up the constitution. However, the constitution is what we have, and unless we choose to just ignore it, it’s what we have to follow. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Anyway: that isn’t my problem. That’s YOUR problem. This is true. But, you seem to want to stick your nose into MY problem. Tell us how to run things, tell us to simply throw out the basic foundation of our country. Man, you are pathetic. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Not really. Not when people are attacked for exercising their democratic right to do what they think is right. Hyperbole won’t help you out here. You just keep digging and digging in your hole of stupid, don’t you? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m glad you agree with me. Can we agree that water is wet as well? Sure, you are entitled to vote anyway your little heart desires. But, when the consequence of your choice of vote means that roe v wade gets overturned, you should own it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That’s **two** of the stupidest things you’ve ever seen. Both from me. > > I’ll wear that as a badge of honour. I thank you. I mean, if you want to take it as a badge of honor that you stick your nose in things you don’t understand and say stupid shit about them, then go ahead. Just keep in mind that you don’t know shit about what you are talking about. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Sure. Does it involved kicking and screaming, and if that doesn’t work, holding your breath until your face turns blue? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well, I’m glad you got that off your chest. > > Feeling better now? I’ll feel better when people like you stop doing their damndest to harm my country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-clinton-hating-dems-feeling-now/966862.md?page=14)