IMO they bear some responsibility, but less than those who actually voted for Trump.
And those who voted for Clinton, but said they were holding their noses while doing it, or voting for the lesser of two evils?
They bear no responsibility, unless they donated to Trump or otherwise did anything to support him. Why would their internal thoughts matter? Responsibility is dictated by action (or inaction), not thoughts.
I noted that too, but I will get unhappy with anyone that implies I’m a liar about a simple personal experience I had. It’s not like I claimed that I flapped my arms and flew to to moon. It was just a few things a friend and I talked about.
Miller’s air quotes around “friend” is insinuating that I’m a liar (post 332). And I would expect better from any moderator on this board.
You wouldn’t be the first to call Miller an asshole. I think you have to be in order to mod the Pit. I see him as our asshole though. I like Miller, but being at the receiving end I can understand being pissed.
I like him too, but will not be called a liar about a pretty benign personal experience.
Waiting for the apology @Miller
Unfortunately, you’ll be waiting a while. When it comes to things Clinton, it seems that hate overrides rationality. There really is little point to a conversation, as they will twist anything you say into a personal insult, claim martyrdom, and then demand an apology from you. Anything that “Team Perfect” does is entirely justified, as they are completely at war with what they believe to be the worst thing ever, and that is what is merely good.
If he does not bring me a shrubbery, I’m going to say KNEE again.
That’s “Ni!” to you.
Right then.
There were some actions involved. If someone makes a big deal about how much they don’t want to vote for Clinton, but will hold their nose and do so, they may turn off voters who aren’t willing to hold their nose.
I’m sure that there were some, hopefully very few, people who chose not to vote for Clinton due to the actions of some of those who did.
And while I agree that those who voted for Trump bear the primary responsibility, those who sat by and watched it happen bear some, too. You can’t just watch someone drown without lifting a finger and then claim to be absolved of any responsibility.
Sure – if they purposefully reduced the chance others might vote against Trump (meaning for Clinton) then they bear a bit of responsibility.
A symbolic vote against fascism is just that. Symbolic. A three party system would be great, but when you have fascists with guns drawn, about to take over your country, your livelihood and your basic fundamental rights RIGHT NOW. It’s best to fight them RIGHT NOW with the best weapon that you have.
It was clear that Sanders was not the best weapon. Clinton was. Someday, someone like Sanders might be. But not now.
Ah yes, what a good candidate Clinton was, probably the only person the joke candidate could beat. What a weird conclusion.
I’m having trouble following what the argument is supposed to be.
I recall in 2016 that some people blamed progressives for Clinton’s loss, but I’ve never seen any actual data that progressives unable to hold their nose were responsible for Clinton’s loss.
Furthermore, we now have a Clinton-like center-left moderate in the WH, and there’s no sign of republicans getting less mental.
Or have I misunderstood the argument? It wasn’t the most eloquent OP.
It’s a dumb argument either way. It’s not the fault of Clinton supporters that Trump won, and it’s not the fault of Sanders supporters or other progressives (unless they voted for Trump, or didn’t vote at all). It’s the fault of Trump voters, and those who refrained from voting for whatever reason (the latter bear some lesser but still real responsibility IMO).
Didn’t say she was a good candidate, but when faced with a disaster, you go with what you’ve got. Don’t stay in a burning building because it’s raining out and you might get a little damp.
That may have been part of Bill’s platform, but that’s not what Hillary’s task force presented. I was working as an Actuary for group health, and my boss had me analyze her proposal for how it would affect our business. I can’t tell you any of the specifics in her proposal, other than it was based on mandated employer insurance coverage - EXACTLY what we ended up with in the ACA. Don’t remember what (if any) public option there was; don’t remember what coverage levels were mandated. What I do remember is being flabbergasted at the industry lobbyists being AGAINST it. Mandated employer coverage should mean more companies getting insurance should mean more overall profits. Harry and Louise confused the hell out of me!
The evidence is the low voter turnout. A lot of people didn’t vote in 2016 - only 59.2% of eligible voters actually voted. 66.9% of eligible voters voted in 2020 and Trump was defeated. If the people who voted against Trump the second time had done so the first time, he’d have been a footnote.
Who were those eligible voters who didn’t show up in 2016? The Magats showed up to vote for their Messiah. The moderates showed up to vote for Clinton. So who were the people who were unhappy with the choices they had and didn’t go to the polls on Election Day?
I know of at least two people who voted third party because they wouldn’t vote for Trump but couldn’t vote for Clinton. Or however it went. One of whom is still a Republican, although he does seem to be working to get the crazies OUT.