# How are the conservatives/GOP getting away with all this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445 "2005-02-10T19:23:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/101 "2005-02-16T06:37:30Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > There have always been numerous reasons why the Iraq war was (in my opinion) justified. If those reasons were so justified, why didn’t Bush simply lay them out before the American populace, instead of throwing up the “we’re gonna get attacked by Iraq any day now” bogeyman? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/102 "2005-02-16T07:01:11Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > If those reasons were so justified, why didn’t Bush simply lay them out before the American populace, instead of throwing up the “we’re gonna get attacked by Iraq any day now” bogeyman? I’ll let Age Quod Agis give his own answer but its a softball question so I’ll just give my two cents on it. Why didn’t Bush lay out either the real reasons for invasion of Iraq or the whole _Saddam is a bad guy, he kills his citizens and does other bad things and we should get rid of him_ arguement to justify a war with Iraq? Simple. They wouldn’t have worked. The American people aren’t going to be enthusiastic about going to war to get rid of a bad dictator…and neither is Congress. Oh, we might participate in a small war as a bit player like in Bosnia, or we might be cool with tossing a few tomahawks or sending in some bombers, but a full invasion? Not going to happen unless there is a clear threat to the US directly. Even strategic threats to our interests aren’t going to fly if they are layed out like that…you have to tie it back to a direct threat to get people worked up about it. Certainly the American people weren’t going to go for the REAL reasons for invading Iraq which were strategic…to establish a secure base of operation in a strategically vital region, to assert US power in the region and to hopefully at least discourage forcefully other nations who might be covertly supporting terrorists or other threats to US security…and secondarily perhaps to draw out terrorists in the region to fight the US there instead of here at home. In other words to distract them. Its too vague to get people excited about, or get the kind of support from Congress needed to really push it through…as opposed to laying out a real tangable threat directly to the US. Was it wrong for the administration to mislead the American people as to the exact reasons for the war? No, probably not…at least not IMHO. They weren’t lieing (again, IMO) but merely not telling the whole truth as to WHY the US was going to war. We elect these people to make the decisions, and sometimes they have to do things for our own good that aren’t too popular. And if they fuck up we USUALLY toss their ass out…at least we have that option. If the war would have been a wise and necessary one then that tactic would have been justified IMO. There really is no other way to GET the US to go to war in a major way without a direct threat to the US…and sometimes that might not be such a good thing. Take the Sudan for instance, or various other situations in the last few decades where America COULD have done something but didn’t because they couldn’t get the popular support needed. (yeah I know I’m an isolationist and don’t believe the US should normally do ANYTHING militarily out in the wider world, but some of those situations just cut me to the core). My problem with the war wasn’t how the administration initially sold it. Part of my own anger is that they were wrong about key elements of WHAT they sold to the people (i.e. it was a major intellegence failure that there were NO WMD in Iraq, and that failure appearently went back to at least one previous administration…what ELSE are they missing?? And more importantly why and how are they missing it?). But mainly my anger is that strategically it seems stupid to invade Iraq at the time and in the manner we did…we might NEED those troops somewhere REALLY important in the not so distant future. Iraq just doesn’t seem worth it to me to expend the amount of capital and resources, the lives, and to tie down our military so throughly. In addition, I see it as a distraction from going after the various terror organizations and doing more on that front. Anyway, thats my two cents. I’m sure you’ll have a blast picking it apart rjung. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/103 "2005-02-16T07:18:39Z")
Thanks, **xtisme,** for admitting that the Bush Administration and the GOP are a bunch of manipulative bastiches who hold the American populace in utter contempt. “We can’t tell the people the truth! If they knew that, we’d _never_ have our way!” ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/104 "2005-02-16T08:47:55Z")
“UN inspections should continue because we aren’t certain” “No need. We’re certain.” ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/105 "2005-02-16T09:28:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Certainly the American people weren’t going to go for the REAL reasons for invading Iraq …to establish a secure base of operation in a strategically vital region, to assert US power in the region … Its too vague to get people excited about, **or get the kind of support from Congress** needed to really push it through…as opposed to laying out a real tangable threat directly to the US. > > Was it wrong for the administration to mislead the American people as to the exact reasons for the war? No, probably not… Wow, just simply, Wow > [@xtisme](#): > > Part of my own anger is that they were wrong about key elements of WHAT they sold to the people (i.e. it was a major intellegence failure that there were NO WMD in Iraq, and that failure appearently went back to at least one previous administration…what ELSE are they missing?? And more importantly why and how are they missing it?). You still don’t get it, do you? They weren’t wrong or missing anything, they just led you to believe things that were wrong. You were mislead, **Xtisme** , whether you want to keep in denial by repeating ‘technically there were no “Lies”’ over and over, you were still mislead. I know it can hurt when you’re starting to suspect youhave been successfuly fooled by someone, it feels like a direct insult to your intellect. You feel ashamed that you hadn’t spotted it. Denial is, of course, a quick way to feel better about yourself. No need for self-reflection, no admitting you were stupid (or duped, if you prefer) and no need to get angry. Because when you get angry you would actually have to follow up and **do** something. Nono better to not get angry, to much hassle and change. Better to downplay what has been done. You are still in denial. You are downgrading what has been done to you , the American people, the world (and espescially the Iraqi’s). You should be angry ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/106 "2005-02-16T09:37:37Z")
Does all of that not run entirely _counter_ to the principles of democracy upon which your republic was founded, **xtisme**? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/107 "2005-02-16T10:49:47Z")
Team Bush is profoundly un-American on a number of different levels. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/108 "2005-02-16T11:36:19Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > The questions are: Where the mis-information _originated_, and what was the _intent_ of repeating that mis-information. > > Those _originally responsible_ for the mis-information are liars, and _intentional_ deceivers. In 1998 the Clinton Administration said that Iraq was pursuing WMD and its government needed to be removed. Please factor in and recalculate. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/109 "2005-02-16T12:02:14Z")
> [@furt](#): > > In 1998 the Clinton Administration said that Iraq was pursuing WMD and its government needed to be removed. > > Please factor in and recalculate. And this was the complete and utter extent of Bush’s information of the subject, with no other credible sources saying otherwise, yes? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/110 "2005-02-16T12:09:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > In 1998 the Clinton Administration said that Iraq was pursuing WMD and its government needed to be removed. > > Please factor in and recalculate. Did Clinton invade Iraq proclaiming their imminent threat to apple-pie snarflers everywhere? Did he send his Secretary of State to the UN with mickey-mouse intel to be publically humiliated in front of the entire world? Did he invent in his own head reports on Iraq nuclear capabilities and use that as evidence of a real and enduring threat? Please factor in and recalculate. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/111 "2005-02-16T12:18:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Afghanistan was masterfully done, at least in the initial military phase. The occupation has been less well done. Do you understand WHY we couldn’t send massive troops into Afghanistan to go after Osama? Why we used ‘local help’ there and only sent in Special Forces troops to interface with that ‘local help’? OBL was deemed the primary target and the very reason for aggression against Afghanistan. The Taleban, as an evil dictatorial fundamentalist regime, was also deemed a primary target, thanks partly to OBL who was said to be sheltered by them. What is the logical approach then? Send a few dozen special forces to “interface” with a bunch of warlords while said warlords tear up after the ruling elite? Nice. The NA’s direction and impetus was, obviously, **from** the countryside **towards** the cities where the Taleban maintained seats of power. OBL’s direction and impetus was most likely **from** the centres of civilization **towards** the countryside and subsequently to get the hell out of Afghanistan. The prey is moving one way, and the hunter (an unreliable hunter at best) is sent in the precise opposite direction. No wonder OBL got away so easily. The Northern Alliance didn’t give two figs for OBL, they wanted the despotic Taleban out of their country. So, rather than devote their attention to catching OBL, the NA (very justly) focused on fighting the Taleban, since they were doing the job largely on their own and suffering all the casualties. The US limited itself to air support. Now, aside from flying jets, what was masterfully done in this whole affair? The Taleban was not defeated by the NA, but merely driven out of the major urban centres into the countryside, where they remain to this day. A number of the top Taleban administration members remain at large. OBL was not caught. Of the primary objectives, one was a complete failure and one was at best a partial success. > [@](#): > > Look at a map some day, then think about HOW we would have gotten massive amounts of troops to that region in a timely fashion without months and months of build up…during which Osama would have most likely bolted anyway. And how we would SUPPLY those troops once we got them to Afghanistan…especially to those mountains were Osama supposedly was hiding out. Looking for Osama would have required troops in the thousands, not hundreds of thousands; not an army to overrun an entire country but limited forces to patrol, in conjunction with the few Afghanis assigned to that task, likely mountainous spots in the hunt for small groups of fugitives – not armies. Supplying such forces of men would seem relatively easy to do when you control 100% of the air; tactically speaking, it would seem identical to dropping bombs, which never seems to be a problem for the USAF. No one is saying bin Laden would have been caught for sure in this manner, but it would have jacked those measly chances up quite a bit. > [@](#): > > As to Osama’s importance or lack of importance its debateable. I actually DON’T think Osama is all that critical, except symbolically. The fact was that we didn’t ‘get’ him quickly, so now its a long slog that may never have a conclusion. Osama might already be dead for all we know. We may NEVER know if he’s alive or dead if he dies in some obscure mountain village and is buried under a rock or something…or killed in some incidental skirmish somewhere. So, the prez being the politician he is, he attempted to shift the focus onto things he felt he could get better milage out of. Standard political tactics 101. Standard nonsensical but convenient apologetics. “The prez being the politician that he is”?? Am I reading this right??? The prez is barely a politician, he’s a serial bully, fanatic, self-righteous, never-wrong man of substandard intelligence with not much in the way of political skill. I’ll admit he has some very shrewd people on his team, but that is about it. Otherwise he is the strictly average kind of guy – or below average actually. Indeed, this image of a regular guy was probably a highly important factor in both elections, since he won against a set of men who were clearly superior in experience, brainpower, and skill. OBL’s importance, even if we assume it is merely symbolic, is still enormously significant. Not just for Americans, not just for OBL’s followers, but for the entire world: here is the man responsible for the single greatest act of terrorism in history, and he’s STILL free in spite of having the mightiest nation and most of the planet after him. Additionally, there is no telling the wealth of strategic intelligence that could have been gathered had bin Laden and his top lieutenants actually been captured. I agree that Afghanistan was handled rather more intelligently and maturely than Iraq, which was an exercise in abject idiocy; but to go the extra distance and claim Afghanistan was masterful simply does not follow. The exception is if you are willing to accept action without fixed goals, and if you have no problem with the dishonest practice of establishing goals _after_ actions are played out. Dante reserved a special place in hell for such people. I merely call them dishonest assholes. Let’s not even get into the matter of how upright it is to mislead with systematic inaccuracies and blatant falsehoods your country, its population, and the democratic exponents of your country so as to win their support in the process, all the while spitting at the UN and at any individual nations that might cry foul. The leader of the free world, we have learned after 9/11, is not accountable to anyone: as long as you can pander to a support base of ignoramuses, morons, and bigots, and add to the mix the millions easily deceived by propaganda, you too need never again deliver on your stated goals. As for OBL being dead “for all we know”, well, for all we know he actually **isn’t** dead, and has, it seems, issued messages in the last year. **Furt** , don’t make me laugh so early in the thread. The evidence you refer to, would you care to present it for us? Then we can (yet again) analyze it and show how Bush took inadequate evidence, inflated it, manipulated it, added to it, mispresented it, stridently insisted on it even when it was debunked, and deployed politics of fear in order to coerce support for it. I’m used to that happening where I live – hell, it is practically _expected_ – but it seems ridiculous and unacceptable to have the standard-bearer for democracy engage in such behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/112 "2005-02-16T12:19:56Z")
And here’s where people come in and point out that Kerry’s campaign was “ **Wrong** war, **wrong** time” and repeatedly describing Bush as having made the **wrong** decisions at every turn. Then **xtisme** and **Age Quod Agis** come back to say, “No no no, not _the_ campaign. It was the people here at SDMB and at Move On who swung the whole thing! Of course, even though I find the argument that Bush consistently made the wrong decisions to have merit, I still voted for him [or didn’t vote for Kerry], but I blame the Democrats.” **xtisme** , your opinions about whether the Democrats should call Bush a liar, coming so soon on the heels of your assertion that the Swift Boat Veterans simply shaded the truth, are exceptionally ill-informed. You are nothing more than a partisan who can only make the barest step away from his party (“Hey, I didn’t vote for Bush, even though I didn’t make the vote most likely to get him out of office”). This administration lied on many occasions (IAEA reports that don’t exist, the famous 16 words about African yellowcake, the aluminum tubes that were only suitable for nuclear applications, Bush’s statement in Poland that “We’ve found the weapons of mass destruction”). If they weren’t intentionally misleading people, WHY WOULD THEY NEED TO GET BACK AT JOSEPH WILSON BY OUTING HIS WIFE, VALERIE PLAME? Just because you want to impute a cover of ignorance doesn’t make it the most parsimonious explanation. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/113 "2005-02-16T12:53:43Z")
It is disturbing that some can be comfortable with the an American government thwarting the gorverned’s ability to withhold consent. The _just_ powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed. When the ability to withhold consent is denied then whatever is given is not consent in any real sense. Deceptive practices, especially of the gravest of issues and magnitude like war, are injuries to the sovereign electorate of free people. Fundamentally and profoundly un-American. IMH Patriotic O. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/114 "2005-02-16T13:23:55Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > The _just_ powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed. When the ability to withhold consent is denied then whatever is given is not consent in any real sense. Deceptive practices, especially of the gravest of issues and magnitude like war, are injuries to the sovereign electorate of free people. And unfortunately for the rightness of this stance, the only one shouting this very fact from the rooftops for the marginalized Left is Michael Moore, who I certainly don’t want representing me. Face it - when 51% of the population is represented with a majority or outright control in all 3 branches of government, then it is no longer a representative democracy. The 48% of the US that doesn’t support Bush or his administration or the Republican agenda not being represented is indicative of a deeper issue. Unless anyone is honestly trying to claim that someone who didn’t vote for Bush would vote for a Republican congressman or Senator… ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/115 "2005-02-16T13:39:12Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Face it - when 51% of the population is represented with a majority or outright control in all 3 branches of government, then it is no longer a representative democracy. The 48% of the US that doesn’t support Bush or his administration or the Republican agenda not being represented is indicative of a deeper issue… Do you not know what is meant by ‘representative democracy’? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/116 "2005-02-16T13:47:36Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > The questions are: Where the mis-information _originated_, and what was the _intent_ of repeating that mis-information. > > Those _originally responsible_ for the mis-information are liars, and _intentional_ deceivers. The ones who accept that information, and repeat it in good faith are mis-informed. Ah, I see. So those who talked about " the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program" and who claimed that Saddam Hussein “has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country” **first** are the **real** liars. Those who repeated the claims are merely misled. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > So who was originally _responsible_ for the mis-information? > > Also, who should be _accountable_ for the repurcussions of that mis-information, _regardless_ of whether or not they were mis-informed, or what their intentions were? Where does the buck stop? According to your definition, the original deceivers who made the claims first. [These nasty, deceiving liars, in other words.](http://www.starktruth.com/comment.asp?articleid=214) Or, to apply **rjung** ’s “standards” - If someone made the following statement: > [@](#): > > “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.” and no WMD (or rather few) were found, the maker of the original statement is a proven liar. QED. Of course, we could always vote the rascals out. Which we did. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/117 "2005-02-16T13:53:20Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Face it - when 51% of the population is represented with a majority or outright control in all 3 branches of government, then it is no longer a representative democracy. I imagine you were even more upset when 43% of the population was represented with majorities and control of the three branches. Or is it only when majority rule is implemented that democracy doesn’t work? 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/118 "2005-02-16T14:00:46Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > And here’s where people come in and point out that Kerry’s campaign was “Wrong war, wrong time” … > [@John Kerry](#): > > Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein…He presents a particularly grievious threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation…So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." What a nasty liar. Right? Same here - see if you can guess the author: > [@](#): > > Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Quada members. Darn that Bush for telling all those nasty lies about Iraq’s links to al-Queda! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/119 "2005-02-16T14:29:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The crux was in HOW he presented the facts though…to give a certain impression or lead you down a certain path that WAS an untruth…or at best a distortion. You don’t seem to be getting that. You are focused solely on the fact that by and large the various snippets of info were truthful…without looking at the larger picture. YOU don’t seem to be getting that you claim the larger picture is more “truthfully” told by falsehoods than by facts. That is pure nonsense. You might try explaining what the “true larger picture” is, IYHO - oughta be amusing. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you something here…what about the Swift Boat Vets do you consider out and out lies? Why do you consider them so? What proof do you have that they were lies? For chrissakes, we’ve been over that and over that, and you cannot expect it to be spoonfed to you. I’ll indulge you for a moment: [http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/) has the best overall summary. > [@](#): > > To me its of a kind…the Swift Boat Vets were mostly telling the truth, but they were doing so in a way that perhaps lead one to false conclusions…Its called ‘spin’. No, when you tell factual falsehoods intentionally, it’s called “lying”. What Moore does, sticking to factual truth, is “spin”. Your disdain for the difference between truth and falsehood is disturbing, but more to the point, it invalidates anything you say based on it. > [@](#): > > Why this is so hard for you to grasp I have no idea. It has nothing to do with Bush…it has to do with using the critical thinking you’d normally use for just about any other subject. Gorblimey. See above. > [@](#): > > And I see you are still fixated on Michael Moore’s factual truth, blindly chanting the mantra while ignoring the deeper issues I’ve already brought up. You have said exactly nothing deeper. > [@](#): > > You are frantically trying to fit me into a Bush supporters mold but its just not working. You are a Bush _apologist_, as your excusing his strings of lies demonstrates. Do you like that word better? > [@](#): > > Perhaps he was as detailed as he could be…his plans were still vague about the critical issues. If Kerry was as detailed as he could be, where do you find room to criticize him for not being even more detailed? Only through ardent Bush apologisim. > [@](#): > > Hey, its my vote. If I didn’t feel either of the candidates deserved my vote its my business. It was up to THEM to convinve ME that I should vote for one or the other of them. It was up to YOU to use your vote responsibly, not as a gesture of disdain for anyone who’s actually gotten his hands dirty trying to accomplish something, despite any ideological impurity you think that stains him with. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t up to me to hem and haw and bend over backwards to choose the lesser of two wevils between them. Yes. Yes, it was. You were willing to allow the greater evil to win because the lesser evil wasn’t pure enough for your ivory tower. > [@](#): > > the Democratic party DID make it a campaign issue to a lesser degree Cite? None of the major Dem candidates, certainly not Kerry, made pro-SSM a campaign plank. It was made a campaign issue by the Republicans only. But someone with your level of regard for fact and your intensity of partisanship might easily make the statement you just did. > [@](#): > > They most certainly were wrong…I agree completely. They are wrong now to oppose gay marrage. But you not only excuse them, but support them. Sad. > [@](#): > > I didn’t throw my vote away at all. Badnarik and the Libs are keen on personal freedom. As long as there is no hope that they’d ever get elected and have to take some real-world responsibility, that would inevitably involve compromising that masturbatory ideology of theirs, then yes, you did throw it away. The real world is less well off because of your choice. You share the responsibility for that. > [@](#): > > Who is excusing it?? I’m EXPLAINING it. Do you understand the difference? The majority of your fellow citizens are opposed to gay marrage at this time. Want to change that? The right way is to educate them, the get them comfortable with the idea, the change their view point. And that is exactly what’s been going on. Do you see that? There is no other way to do it than activism - and you oppose it, and yes, you excuse the bigotry and ignorance behind that opposition. More simple nonsense from one at odds with the world of fact. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445/120 "2005-02-16T14:33:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just correcting the usual misstatements of fact. I said Bush called the imagined Iraq threat “grave and gathering”. He did. I made no misstatement of fact. > [@](#): > > [Have fun spinning your usual “It’s a lie if a Republican said it, even if it is true, but not if a Democrat said it, until it isn’t, but not always, unless it needs to be”. :rolleyes: Bush said it. It was a lie. People who believed him and repeated his statements were misled by him. Thousands of people are dead because of Bush’s lies. No, apparently you don’t get it this time, either. > [@](#): > > Regards, > Shodan You have no regards. That too is a lie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-conservatives-gop-getting-away-with-all-this/289445.md?page=7)