# How are the flag of Owain Glyndwr and Welsh nationalism viewed outside Wales? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 13, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885 "2020-02-13T18:13:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/41 "2020-02-15T15:37:19Z")
ETA: comment on post by **Chronos** No, Wales isn’t represented in the Union flag. The Union flag started out as a merger of the English flag (cross of St George: red cross on white background) combined with the Scots flag (white cross saltire or a blue background). Then the St Patrick’s cross (red saltire on white background) was added when Ireleandnwas merged into the UK in the early 19th century. All of that happened long after Wales was merged under full English control by Henry VIII. There was no thought of adding any Welsh symbolism to the English cross of St George. Instead, Wales has the kickass dragon flag. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/42 "2020-02-15T15:48:52Z")
Here’s links to the flags that make up the Union flag, plus the flag of Wales. English flag: [Flag of England - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England) Scots flag: [Flag of Scotland - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland) Union flag (1603-1801): [Union Jack - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#/media/File%3AFlag_of_Great_Britain_(1707%E2%80%931800).svg) Cross of Saint Patrick: [Saint Patrick's Saltire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire) Union flag (1801 to ?): [Union Jack - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#/media/File%3AFlag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg) Flag of Wales: [Flag of Wales - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Wales) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/43 "2020-02-15T16:29:33Z")
Looking at the various Welsh flags, it seems to me that the flag of Owen Glendwr is very similar to the flag of the Prince of Wales. Can folks tell the difference from a distance? Is it obvious in context which one is being displayed? > **[List of Welsh flags](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_flags)** > > This is a list of flags used exclusively in Wales. > Of the 13 historic counties, seven have flags registered with the Flag Institute, with Brecknockshire, Cardiganshire (now Ceredigion), Carmarthenshire, Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire and Radnorshire outstanding.\[clarification needed\] ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/44 "2020-02-18T22:22:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is worth noting here that people who live in the UK have an easy and full understanding of the conceptual difference between a country and a nation-state that people elsewhere often don’t have because they have no familiarity with such a thing. Someone living in the UK fully understands that Scotland, for instance, is a country, but that it exists in a larger state, because people who live in the UK are used to that concept. It’s part of their civics education. It’s what they live. > > My fellow Canadians generally do not entirely comprehend that. It’s very weird to us, as evidenced by the passionate ongoing debates over Quebec’s being a nation or not or whatever. To people here, or in the USA or Australia or Japan or lots of places, the world is divided into nation-states. That’s why it’s so often the case that we fuck up the distinction between the UK and England. The idea of a nation isn’t very complicated: it’s a large group of people with a shared history, culture, often language or religion, and a sense of their own identity as a distinct people. And I’m fairly convinced you and other Canadians are familiar with the idea. Do you, for example, think of Kurds as a nation? What about Uyghurs, or Tibetans? I sure do, and I think most Canadians would as well. Kurds may not be exactly a “country” in UK parlance, being divided between several independent countries (although I understand the Iraqi Kurdistan is fairly autonomous), but there exist Uyghur and Tibetan “countries”, even if they are largely dominated by the central government of China. In the same vein, I’m perfectly fine with the Welsh being one of the UK’s constituent nations, and Wales being that nation’s home country. I don’t think there’s anything strange or foreign about this idea. Interestingly, Wales in French is always called _le pays de Galles_, or literally “the Country of Wales”. As for the question in the OP, I’d never heard about the flag of Owain Glyndŵr and at first thought it referred to the flag of Wales which I am familiar with. I’ve heard of Welsh nationalism, but as I understand it’s a less important political force than Scottish nationalism. Still more important than Cornish nationalism though. If many Canadians oppose the idea of Quebec being a nation, I don’t think it’s because they don’t understand what that means or think the idea is weird. It’s because Canadian nation-building has focused on the idea of Canada being essentially a “post-national nation” for lack of a better term. If Canada is defined by its lack of a national culture and any culture that develops in Canada is “Canadian”, then there cannot be nations existing inside Canada other than the Canadian nation itself. I don’t buy this idea of course, I think there exists a Canadian national culture and it’s essentially Ontarian culture with some added elements, but it is an idea that’s very prevalent in Canadian thought. ---
**Author:** ![breezman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@breezman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/breezman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/45 "2020-02-19T02:36:16Z")
I’m not really familiar with the flag, but I do know it from Roger Waters’s song “Sunset Strip” on _Radio KAOS_. “And I sit in the canyon with my back to the sea There’s a blood red dragon on a field of green Calling me back, back to the Black Hills again.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/46 "2020-02-19T02:57:33Z")
I find that my fellow Americans largely don’t grasp the differences among the concepts of countries, nations, and states. They use “country” and “nation” interchangeably and largely understand “state” to be a subdivision of a country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/47 "2020-02-19T08:35:59Z")
> [@breezman](#): > > I’m not really familiar with the flag, but I do know it from Roger Waters’s song “Sunset Strip” on _Radio KAOS_. > > “And I sit in the canyon with my back to the sea > There’s a blood red dragon on a field of green > Calling me back, back to the Black Hills again.” No, that’s the Welsh national flag, which is well known throughout the UK. The thread is about a different flag, with lions on it. To answer the OP’s question, I would not have recognised the flag of OG. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/48 "2020-02-19T11:37:31Z")
As a further footnote on how Welsh nationalism is viewed, I don’t think it’s ever been established whether it was an English or Welsh person who amended the occasional “Free Wales” graffiti by adding “With every five gallons”. AFAIK all that was back in the 60s, when there were vocal campaigns about the status of the language, and a handful of ham-fisted would-be guerrillas were caught. Since then, Welsh has much more official status in public services, education and broadcasting, as well as devolved government over a range of issues. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/49 "2020-02-19T11:58:49Z")
Huh, I had thought that the three crosses of the Union Jack were England, Wales, and Scotland. I never would have guessed that they’d omit Wales, nor that they’d include Ireland. Color me educated. And I didn’t even get the dragon right, either. I thought that it was rampant, when it’s actually passant. Still, if I were in Wales, and saw any flag, crest, or similar symbol which included a dragon in any posture, I’d have guessed that it was the Welsh dragon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/50 "2020-02-19T12:08:18Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > Is flag of Owain Glyndwr recognized outside Wales and if so, what kind of connotations does it carry? It means “National Eisteddfod” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/51 "2020-02-19T17:10:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Looking at the various Welsh flags, it seems to me that the flag of Owen Glendwr is very similar to the flag of the Prince of Wales. Can folks tell the difference from a distance? Is it obvious in context which one is being displayed? > > [List of Welsh flags - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_flags) Once you know what you’d looking at, it is definitely easy to tell the difference from a significant distance because the PoW flag has a green shield-y thing in the center. (As you can see I am a great expert in heraldry since I know terms like “shield-y thing.”) And at a closer distance it’s easy to see that the lions in OG are rampant and passant in PoW ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/52 "2020-02-20T11:40:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Huh, I had thought that the three crosses of the Union Jack were England, Wales, and Scotland. I never would have guessed that they’d omit Wales, nor that they’d include Ireland. Color me educated. > > And I didn’t even get the dragon right, either. I thought that it was rampant, when it’s actually passant. Still, if I were in Wales, and saw any flag, crest, or similar symbol which included a dragon in any posture, I’d have guessed that it was the Welsh dragon. Just to muddy the waters further, Wales does have a cross flag - you just don’t see it very often. It’s the [cross of St David](https://www.google.com/search?q=flag+of+st+david&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB869GB869&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig5I7UheDnAhXKTcAKHWL6BsQQ_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1623&bih=864&dpr=2#imgrc=63_sHcFPlxBQPM:), Wales’ nation saint. But it isn’t the national flag. Whereas England (cross of St George) and Scotland (cross of St Andrew) do use their nation saint flags as national flags. The Republic of Ireland clearly has a different flag from the cross of St Patrick used in the Union Jack. That’s a bit of an historic hangover. Northern Ireland doesn’t have an official national flag. Wales’ official national flag is clearly the world’s coolest. Who doesn’t want a dragon! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/53 "2020-02-20T11:42:38Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > Once you know what you’d looking at, it is definitely easy to tell the difference from a significant distance because the PoW flag has a green shield-y thing in the center. (As you can see I am a great expert in heraldry since I know terms like “shield-y thing.”) An _inescutcheon_. But I like shield-y thing. > [@](#): > > And at a closer distance it’s easy to see that the lions in OG are rampant and passant in PoW _Passant guardant_, to be pedantic (I’m an SCA herald, it’s a job requirement). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/54 "2020-02-20T11:58:42Z")
So you know that people in other professions can make puns, but heralds cant. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/55 "2020-02-20T13:26:46Z")
Have to admit I wasn’t aware that Welsh nationalism existed. The only associations I have with Wales are leeks and “How Green Was My Valley”. Also Jimmy Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/56 "2020-02-20T13:41:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > My impression is that in the nationalistic fervour stakes, among the ‘junior partners’ to the Union, the ordering is Northern Ireland top, then Scotland, then a biiiig gap, then Wales. Pretty much, with Cornwall as the embarrassing baby brother running up behind and yelling “I want to play too!” I’m English, but spent my early childhood within half a mile of the Welsh border and speak a little Welsh (albeit very little now; we were going to move to North Wales when I was a kid, as my parents had bought land and were planning on starting a business, but were chased out by local nationalists who set fire to the caravan we were staying in and openly boasted about doing so). I am familiar with the tales of Owain Glyndwr even if I can’t spell his name without checking, rather _too_ familiar with Welsh nationalism, but I wouldn’t have recognised the flag. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/57 "2020-02-20T13:43:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So you know that people in other professions can make puns, but heralds cant. I saw what you did there. Quite a blot on your escutcheon. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885/58 "2020-02-20T14:20:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Have to admit I wasn’t aware that Welsh nationalism existed. > > The only associations I have with Wales are leeks and “How Green Was My Valley”. > > Also Jimmy Wales. Tom Jones? Catherine Zeta Jones? Anthony Hopkins? Richard Burton? Michael Sheen? Proud acting and singing traditions a plenty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-the-flag-of-owain-glyndwr-and-welsh-nationalism-viewed-outside-wales/847885.md?page=2)