# How are these body mods medically ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987 "2016-06-10T01:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/21 "2016-06-10T15:20:16Z")
Since this is about ethics, it’s beyond the scope of General Questions. Let’s move it to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/22 "2016-06-10T16:55:24Z")
[quote=“Marvin\_the\_Martian, post:20, topic:756987”] > [@TriPolar](#): > > They (pinnae) are quite critical for [sound localization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#Sound_localization_by_the_human_auditory_system). The structure causes the frequency response of your ear to vary depending on the direction the sound is coming from. Without pinnae it would be much more difficult to determine if a sound is coming from in front of you or behind you. I don’t think this can be classified as “relative useless”. People can function quite well without hearing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/23 "2016-06-10T17:06:28Z")
[quote=“TriPolar, post:17, topic:756987”] > [@jz78817](#): > > …If a cleft lip is modified solely for the sake of appearance it’s no different from what this wack job has done. Cleft lips can interfere with eating & speaking. And I find it reprehensible that you would deny correction of this birth defect on the basis of appearance. Let me guess–you’re afraid that your precious tax money might help a child with a cleft lip? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/24 "2016-06-10T17:20:47Z")
[quote=“TriPolar, post:22, topic:756987”] > [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > People can function quite well without hearing at all. Yes, but people who lose their hearing go through a period of adjustment. People who are born without hearing usually function seamlessly, but it’s different for someone who could hear, then suddenly couldn’t. I can seriously see someone who voluntarily had ears removed, then failed to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle, or something, being denied insurance coverage for damage to their vehicle when they got clipped by a police car, if they claimed to hear the siren, but not realize where it was coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/25 "2016-06-10T17:25:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > People can function quite well without hearing at all. What difference does that make to the original question? Are you saying the only unethical medical procedure is one that kills the patient? I could go in and ask the doctor to make me deaf and the doctor should have no problem doing it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/26 "2016-06-10T17:30:09Z")
[quote=“Bridget\_Burke, post:23, topic:756987”] > [@TriPolar](#): > > Cleft lips can interfere with eating & speaking. And I find it reprehensible that you would deny correction of this birth defect on the basis of appearance. > > Let me guess–you’re afraid that your precious tax money might help a child with a cleft lip? Your heading in the wrong direction. Not only that at no time did I indicate there was anything wrong with correction to a cleft lip. I don’t know why you would make such a statement. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with body modifications at all. I don’t see these as being harmful to the person’s health. Good directional hearing isn’t a medical concern. The subject is an adult, people modify their bodies in all sorts of ways, including cosmetic implants which have numerous associated problems, and a common practice of removing what some people consider very important tissue from newborn males. If these procedures aren’t unethical I don’t see why modifying the shape of one’s nose and ears is that important. They aren’t going to get sick and die from it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/27 "2016-06-10T17:49:43Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Since this is about ethics, it’s beyond the scope of General Questions. Let’s move it to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator I won’t protest your decision but I am not trying to debate as to whether this _should_ be considered ethical, but rather get input about the consensus within the medical community as to whether it is generally considered ethical. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/28 "2016-06-10T17:55:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The subject is an adult, people modify their bodies in all sorts of ways, including cosmetic implants which have numerous associated problems, and a common practice of removing what some people consider very important tissue from newborn males. If these procedures aren’t unethical I don’t see why modifying the shape of one’s nose and ears is that important. They aren’t going to get sick and die from it. Suppose someone walked into an orthopedic surgeon’s office and said, “God has commanded me to go forth without hands. Please cut off these offending appendages.” Would the doctor say, “Well, he isn’t going to get sick and die from it,” and cut them off, using the fees to pay for this year’s country club membership? Where is the line between, “He’s a consenting adult and also I can make money from this” and “This guy needs therapy”? I am mostly interested in understanding the consensus within the medical community. I have a feeling that the people in the body mod community are going to say that pretty much anything goes as long as the person’s money is green and they can sign their name on what I assume are lengthy releases of liability. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/29 "2016-06-10T18:16:01Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Suppose someone walked into an orthopedic surgeon’s office and said, “God has commanded me to go forth without hands. Please cut off these offending appendages.” Would the doctor say, “Well, he isn’t going to get sick and die from it,” and cut them off, using the fees to pay for this year’s country club membership? Where is the line between, “He’s a consenting adult and also I can make money from this” and “This guy needs therapy”? > > I am mostly interested in understanding the consensus within the medical community. I have a feeling that the people in the body mod community are going to say that pretty much anything goes as long as the person’s money is green and they can sign their name on what I assume are lengthy releases of liability. I don’t think medical ethics would require a doctor to perform such surgery, but if the patient doesn’t seem mentally disturbed, and can convince the doctor he is going to be better off as a result of having no hands then it shouldn’t be an ethical concern for the doctor. I don’t see how that would happen with hands, I’m not sure how it happens for ears and a nose either, but I don’t see the doctor doing anything more unethical than any purely cosmetic surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/30 "2016-06-10T19:32:50Z")
[Woman who had six of her ribs removed to have a 14 inch waist.](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pixee-fox-woman-who-ribs-7051256) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/31 "2016-06-10T23:16:25Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > [Woman who had six of her ribs removed to have a 14 inch waist.](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pixee-fox-woman-who-ribs-7051256) If I were on a jury asked to pass judgement on a surgeon who operated on someone so they could look like a cartoon I would vote against the surgeon. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/32 "2016-06-10T23:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > If I were on a jury asked to pass judgement on a surgeon who operated on someone so they could look like a cartoon I would vote against the surgeon. me too. I think most cosmetic surgery, defined as a procedure solely intended to alter a person’s appearance and not affecting physical functioning, is extremely unethical. There are some cosmetic surgery procedures that are kind of borderline- function or appearance? but for the most part, straight-up cosmetic surgery violates the “do no harm” principle. Every surgical procedure causes damage to the body and places the patient at risk of nasty and occasionally fatal complications. And I think most people who ask for radical cosmetic surgery are mentally disturbed and it’s even more unethical in those cases. They can’t make informed choices. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/33 "2016-06-10T23:58:42Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > [Woman who had six of her ribs removed to have a 14 inch waist.](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pixee-fox-woman-who-ribs-7051256) OK. The pictures almost made me puke. Anyone seriously think that’s attractive? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/34 "2016-06-11T00:21:52Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > OK. The pictures almost made me puke. Anyone seriously think that’s attractive? Those boobs are bigger than her head! Why not get a face cosmetically carved into each? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/35 "2016-06-11T00:26:02Z")
Art Hoppe, late S. F. Chron humor columnist, did an article way back in early 1970’s, when sex-change operations were quite a new thing being pioneered at Stanford. It seems that a married man, with a family, was convinced that he was born into the wrong body, and went to Stanford for “The Operation”, and came home as a gorgeous, long-silky-haired blonde Golden Retriever. (I think this was a parody inspired by the then-recent movie Myra Breckinridge.) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/36 "2016-06-11T01:31:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t think medical ethics would require a doctor to perform such surgery, but if the patient doesn’t seem mentally disturbed, and can convince the doctor he is going to be better off as a result of having no hands then it shouldn’t be an ethical concern for the doctor. I don’t see how that would happen with hands, I’m not sure how it happens for ears and a nose either, but I don’t see the doctor doing anything more unethical than any purely cosmetic surgery. The hands example was a _reducto ad absurdum_ argument. I suppose that a doctor would never be compelled to perform _any_ procedure, unless it posed an imminent health threat. But is cutting off ears consistent with “First, do no harm”? IMHO the goal of ethical cosmetic surgery is to restore appearance to the range of normal, or enhance appearance to achieve a societal notion of beauty. I mean, even for sex change surgery I believe many doctors have patients live openly as the sex they want to see how that works out before they perform surgery. Maybe counseling involved, too, I don’t know. But to alter your appearance so you no longer look human–I don’t know how that can be considered mentally healthy or helpful in any way. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/37 "2016-06-11T01:39:45Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > IMHO the goal of ethical cosmetic surgery is to restore appearance to the range of normal, or enhance appearance to achieve a societal notion of beauty. So some people’s concept of beauty counts and not others? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/38 "2016-06-11T02:01:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So some people’s concept of beauty counts and not others? Yes, of course. That’s what social norms are about. There is no objective standard by which Paris Hilton is prettier than Roseann Barr…but ask 100 Americans… An ordinary typical facelift is not as unethical as cutting someone’s lips, nose, and ears off completely. Most of us would probably say that a typical facelift is not unethical at all. Society makes decisions like this. There’s a “bell curve” with normalcy toward the middle and freaky-doodle stuff at the fringes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/39 "2016-06-11T02:30:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yes, of course. That’s what social norms are about. > > There is no objective standard by which Paris Hilton is prettier than Roseann Barr…but ask 100 Americans… > > An ordinary typical facelift is not as unethical as cutting someone’s lips, nose, and ears off completely. Most of us would probably say that a typical facelift is not unethical at all. > > Society makes decisions like this. There’s a “bell curve” with normalcy toward the middle and freaky-doodle stuff at the fringes. So the difference between ethical and unethical cosmetic surgery is the percentage of people that like the result. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987/40 "2016-06-11T03:10:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So the difference between ethical and unethical cosmetic surgery is the percentage of people that like the result. I ran into something like this as a dentist. When gold grills were a big deal 10-12 years ago a lot of dentists said they were unethical since one would be cutting perfectly good teeth just to put gold on them. I pointed out that most dentists thought it was perfectly okay to cut down healthy teeth just to place porcelain on them(veneers). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-these-body-mods-medically-ethical/756987.md?page=3)