# How are they intending to have electric-car charging stations in urban areas?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 12, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250 "2021-11-12T16:32:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/61 "2021-11-16T18:44:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#):
>
> People like OP frankly falls into an outlier status that there simply is not an amazingly good answer for right now. If you live in some of the few hyperdense, low car ownership areas in the U.S. (and I think there’s probably less than 10 such places or thereabouts) if you aren’t one of the people who has access to a privately owned parking space that can be fitted with a charge (i.e. you rely on public street parking, or parking in lots that do not offer charges or the ability to install chargers) then all of the current options are going to be much less convenient than filling up gas in a regular ICE car.
From another thread Re: the availability of home charging (edited for better spacing):
> [@Road trips w/ electric vehicles](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/108):
>
> > We estimate that less than half of US vehicles have reliable access to a dedicated off-street parking space at an owned residence where charging infrastructure could be installed. Specifically, while approximately 79% households have off-street parking for at least some of their vehicles, only an estimated 56% of vehicles have a ddedicate off-street parking space – and only 47% at an owned residence. Approximately 22% vehicles currently have access to a dedicated home parking space within reach of an outlet sufficient to recharge a small plug-in vehicle battery pack overnight
>
> (Somewhat dated) [link](http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2013.10.001)
>
> This obviously doesn’t address new charging capital at commercial establishments for day-charging. Although one advantage of night-charging is in using off-peak electricity to reduce the need for new generating capacity.
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### Author:  [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/62 "2021-11-16T18:46:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> My whole foods has a couple of free charging spots, because they want to look green. But all the municipal-owned charging spots near me require the driver to pay for a charge.
I just wanted to respond to the irony. Here the Whole Foods has a fee for charging, and the city owned chargers are free to use.
The nearest Whole Foods has a level 3 50kW DC fastcharger, and the municipal ones are level 2 6.6kW chargers, so it isn’t really surprising.
I expect in a year or so the city ones will add a charging fee. Charging at a public school here used to be free, but now costs about the amount required to cover electricity. Charging at my university used to be free, but now costs enough to cover the price of parking (even if you already own a permit), plus electricity, hardware maintenance, and service fees from the ChargePoint.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/63 "2021-11-16T18:55:15Z")
Some of those numbers are suggestive of multiple car households though, it’s not reasonable to speculate that maybe in the transition to EV such households have only 1 EV for a time and their second car remains ICE. The numbers are suggestive that the majority of American households have access to off-street parking that could be fitted with charging, but that such spots don’t cover a majority of American cars.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/64 "2021-11-16T20:18:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#):
>
> I think this is generally overstated and a weak analysis on a few fronts.
It was more of a message noard post than an analysis, and wasn’t meant to be comprehensive. I did say that people aren’t just moving to rural areas, but to smaller cities (your Sacramento example). And I wasn’t uust talking about what’s happening today, but where the trends are leading.
There is no doubt that Covid has a massive impact on current trends. But that doesn’t mean we’ll go back to the old ways once Covid is gone. What we will domis find a new post-pandemic equilibrium, but it will not be the same one we had before, That’s how complex systems work.
For example, I think we are seeing some permanent labor force changes. Many businesses have discovered that working at home works for them, and lots of workers like it. Some will go back to work in an office, but the ‘new normal’ for labor will undoubtedly contain a larger work-at home component.
Trends that disfavor dense city cores:
- work from home
- improvements in video conferencing and other communication tools
- VR acceptance
- Lowering cost / energy of transport
- Car automation and features making commuting easier
- Increasing hostility to cars in downtown cores
- Increase in violence / homelessness in cities
- Increasing property taxes
- Aging population
- increased worry about pandemics/disease
- widespread fast package delivery reducing the need to shop,in person
- Increasing jobs that are location-independent (service jobs, programming, etc)
- availability of high speed internet anywhere
Trends favoring movement to city cores
- smaller families
- Bubble of younger people who prefer city life
Anything else? What trends do you see that would make living in the city more popular in the future than it is now?
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/65 "2021-11-16T20:29:49Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> Yeah! What are they thinking, providing clean, cheap, and efficient transportation options to anyone other than car owners? That’s CRAZY! It’ll [never work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen).
Come to Edmonton. We’re one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world, and our council has been shutting down car lanes and replacing them with bike lanes for years now. For all but healthy young biking fanatics, bicycling is maybe a 4-month activity here. The rest of the time we get to drive on narrower, congested roads.
There are bike lanes here on which I have never seen a single bicycle. In the meantime, the cars on the now single-lane road beside it are backed up and spewing more CO2 into the air because they spend more time idling and less time moving. We spent tens of millions of dollars to achieve lower efficiency.
Our downtown core is dying. The city is trying to figure out how to revitalize it, but every time they ask the public the answers are the same: Get rid of the bike lanes, develop more parking, reduce the homeless population and the panhandlers. Overwhelmngly, people say it’s too hard to drive downtown, and when they do they feel unsafe.
The city’s response is always to do things that make all of those worse. Their latest plan appears to somehow bring in 500,000 new residents (how, they won’t say) and build housing for them in the city center. Oh, that’ll make things better!
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/66 "2021-11-16T22:01:55Z")
Clearly the city council in Edmonton is planning for a future when Edmonton’s climate is like present-day San Diego. You should thank them for their foresight.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/67 "2021-11-16T22:14:00Z")
Well, a 2 degrees warmer world would make Edmonton more like southern Alberta, so that doesn’t really help. Or another way to look at it is it would be like lowering Edmonton’s altitude from 2177 ft to 1177 ft, given the lapse rate of the atmosphere.
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### Author:  [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)
#### Post date: [November 17, 2021, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/68 "2021-11-17T01:18:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Come to Edmonton. We’re one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world, and our council has been shutting down car lanes and replacing them with bike lanes for years now. For all but healthy young biking fanatics, bicycling is maybe a 4-month activity here. The rest of the time we get to drive on narrower, congested roads.
I certainly can’t speak to what’s happening in Edmonton, but I do know that it’s usually not a good idea to take your individual experience in one city and then apply that to all cities everywhere, particularly if your city is an outlier, i.e. “one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world.”
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### Author:  [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/69 "2021-11-18T04:19:46Z")
[Here’s an example](https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5025191,-73.5609381,3a,49.9y,340.11h,92.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZvu1jfcuQogiMSOOnmmcHQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of an on-street public charging location in downtown Montréal, and [here’s one](https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5300314,-73.5903179,3a,75y,5.2h,94.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0-LfM8wfSDFgvtJHp1Rbvg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in a mixed-use neighborhood. This is level 2 charging, with J1772 plugs, so most cars need to stay for at least a few hours. The [network](https://lecircuitelectrique.com/en/find-a-station/) is operated by the government (well, the publicly-owned utility). You can locate stations and manage your account using an application on your phone. Charging fees for these level 2 stations are 1 dollar per hour, billed by the second. There are parking regulations to reserve these parking spots for plug-in cars, and to force cars to move out once they’re charged.
This system works for occasional use, but it still wouldn’t be enough if half the cars were plug-in.
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### Author:  [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/70 "2021-11-18T06:33:20Z")
> [@Heracles](#):
>
> This system works for occasional use, but it still wouldn’t be enough if half the cars were plug-in.
If half or more of the cars were plug-ins, there would be a LOT more charging units.
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Come to Edmonton. We’re one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world, and our council has been shutting down car lanes and replacing them with bike lanes for years now.
At least you and Calgary are building transit to take people downtown. Toronto, for example, spent decades arguing about this or that downtown relief plan, cancelling what they had planned and coming up with new ideas and then refusing to fund them. There is one line that loops through downtown. I’m in my 60’s, and I used to play in the under-construction University leg when it was under construction and I was 8. they keep adding to the feeder length without expanding the number of downtown options. They’re going to start building that extra downtown line “real soon now…”
It’s the lesson every city needs to learn. Land is cheap in the suburbs, and there’s plenty of parking. If you want people to come downtown, either provide parking or better yet, good transit and park-and-rides. Cycling is nice in a small city, but it’s not just winter - get enough rain and cycling to work is not feasible either. Every cyclist needs a Plan B. If the city is too big, cycling again is not an option. All the bike lanes in the world are useless if the way to get to them is on dangerous high-speed no-bike-lane streets.
One comment I’ve seen on other sites about EV charging - yes, 50% or more of dwellings may have a dedicated parking spot associated. However, the problem is providing electrical service. In my house, my charger is attached to my electrical panel and goes through the same meter. Many people in Toronto live in tall apartments with underground parking. Installing a charger in a random spot would not be a cheap exercise - and if it’s a rental, who wants to do so? Worse yet, wiring every spot bring us back to the chicken-and-egg scenario. It’s a major expense, that won’t happen until enough tenants own EV’s, which won’t happen if they have to scramble elsewhere for charging. Same for a lot of row housing with separate garages. And even more so, installing basically the equivalent of a home service in each parking stall implies even greater expenses all the way from the main transformer; plus the requirement to individually meter all this. Not trivial.
(Level 2 - 32A @240V is 8kW, which is good for recharging in a matter of hours overnight. But that implies each parking stall will need 40A service. ) Chargers will probably need more advanced protocols so they can communicate need, lower or pause charging to balance loads without the car thinking “I’m off now”. If some cars only need an hour or two of charging to full, you would prefer that each car charge in turn or at reduced load rather than the full load clicking on at midnight and then by 5AM almost no cars are charging… If the system can be smart, why not let it be?
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### Author:  [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/71 "2021-11-18T12:12:21Z")
> [@md-2000](#):
>
> > [@Heracles](#):
> >
> > This system works for occasional use, but it still wouldn’t be enough if half the cars were plug-in.
>
> If half or more of the cars were plug-ins, there would be a LOT more charging units.
A lot more would be needed, yes, but there are limits to how many of these units you can build on a given street. Electrical limits, as you say, but also spatial limits. If the parking spots are reserved for vehicles that are actively charging, then you also need space to park those vehicles once they’re charged. If you allow only plug-in vehicles in these spots but allow them to remain after they’re fully charged, you’ll need more charging stations. If you allow non-electric vehicles in these spots, then basically every parking spot on the street needs to be equipped for charging.
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/72 "2021-11-18T14:43:56Z")
> [@Heracles](#):
>
> If you allow non-electric vehicles in these spots, then basically every parking spot on the street needs to be equipped for charging.
That’s where we’re going to end up, once at least half the cars on the road ar EVs. It’s getting there that’s the problem.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/73 "2021-11-18T14:44:59Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> > [@Sam\_Stone](#):
> >
> > Come to Edmonton. We’re one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world, and our council has been shutting down car lanes and replacing them with bike lanes for years now. For all but healthy young biking fanatics, bicycling is maybe a 4-month activity here. The rest of the time we get to drive on narrower, congested roads.
>
> I certainly can’t speak to what’s happening in Edmonton, but I do know that it’s usually not a good idea to take your individual experience in one city and then apply that to all cities everywhere, particularly if your city is an outlier, i.e. “one of the coldest, most northerly cities in the world.”
It also is probably the reality that very northern cities are going to be some of the last places with high EV usage, and likely will need to see actual improvements in core battery technology. Batteries are much less effective with current technology in the cold.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/74 "2021-11-18T14:50:00Z")
I have a co-worker with a Nissan Leaf and she has to go down to the garage during the day to move her car from the parking spot next to the charger when it’s fully charged. I think the way this can be encouraged (and I _think_ that’s how it works now) is to have a low charge for parking at a charger for a set time but if you exceed that time, the rate increases sharply.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/75 "2021-11-18T14:58:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#):
>
> It also is probably the reality that very northern cities are going to be some of the last places with high EV usage, and likely will need to see actual improvements in core battery technology. Batteries are much less effective with current technology in the cold.
In [Norway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway), the majority of new car sold are electric and overall, one in five is.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/76 "2021-11-18T15:03:09Z")
As a point of comparison, Oslo (which is around 27% of Norway’s total population) the average lows in winter are 23.5F in December, 22.5F in January, 22.5F in February. Edmonton averages daily lows about 15-18 degrees colder in those months.
People often don’t realize that the settled parts of Scandinavia, which are all near the sea, are generally quite a bit warmer than many cities in North America which are significantly further South.
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### Author:  [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/77 "2021-11-18T15:07:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> I think the way this can be encouraged (and I _think_ that’s how it works now) is to have a low charge for parking at a charger for a set time but if you exceed that time, the rate increases sharply.
This is exactly how it is for me at work. The first 4 hours of charging are 25 cents per hour (!!), then after 4 hours it increases to 6 dollars per hour. I just charge when I arrive then move my car at lunch.
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/78 "2021-11-18T15:25:21Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> This is exactly how it is for me at work. The first 4 hours of charging are 25 cents per hour (!!), then after 4 hours it increases to 6 dollars per hour. I just charge when I arrive then move my car at lunch.
I parked at a place like this once. It’s a good idea, but I couldn’t get back to move my car. I used my car’s app to turn off charging remotely and stayed in the spot. I wouldn’t make a habit of that, it’s not being a good EV citizen.
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### Author:  [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/79 "2021-11-18T15:28:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> I wouldn’t make a habit of that, it’s not being a good EV citizen.
Agreed. There is a “regular” where I park and charge that does this frequently and it’s annoying. It’s not a major problem at the moment because I’ve never had trouble getting a charging spot, but as more EVs start parking there, it will be.
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### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-they-intending-to-have-electric-car-charging-stations-in-urban-areas/954250/80 "2021-11-18T15:46:34Z")
Looks like Finland is doing something right here. Many of the ideas being discussed here are a reality there…
> **[Finland Has A Genius Charging Solution For EVs - Use Existing Block Heater...](https://insideevs.com/news/332283/finland-has-a-genius-charging-solution-for-evs-use-existing-block-heater-poles-video/)**
>
> Finland has more than 1 million parking spaces equipped with electric poles for engine heaters - which can easily be turned into charging stations.
> **[Registrations of fully electric cars surged to record high in Finland in October](https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/20322-registrations-of-fully-electric-cars-surged-to-record-high-in-finland-in-october.html)**
>
> The Information Centre of Road Transport views that the increase is attributable to the recent removal of the car tax for fully electric vehicles.
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