# How are we going to stop BBQ'ing children (EV school bus fires) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 12, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950 "2023-05-12T14:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/1 "2023-05-12T14:50:05Z")
I think the movement towards EV’s is great and showing success IRL on the road. But one thing I am concerned about is when (not if) a school bus full of children goes up in lithium fueled flames. While this is very sad, what I want to address is the political fallout, namely cries to stop using/making EV’s and/or to limit their use. Those cries will go up even if statistically they are safer from roasting children then ICE buses. I’m sure the EV makers are likewise concerned about the perception that such a EV bus fire could cause politically. But is there any hope of making a practical EV school bus that could not face this issue? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/2 "2023-05-12T14:58:22Z")
We’ll probably be moving past lithium-ion batteries for something like a school bus. The sodium-ion batteries they’re developing take up more room so won’t work well for small devices but will work great in buses. Especially city & school buses. The sodium-ion battery is cheaper & safer but doesn’t have the storage density of lithium ion. I expect by 2030 that we’ll start seeing buses with this battery tech. Here is one article on them: > **[Here's why sodium-ion batteries are shaping up to be a big technology...](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/sodium-ion-batteries-shaping-up-to-be-big-technology-breakthrough.html)** > > Although still in its infancy, the global market for sodium-ion batteries is expected to be worth over $11 billion by 2033. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/3 "2023-05-12T15:02:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > But one thing I am concerned about is when (not if) a school bus full of children goes up in lithium fueled flames. Is this more likely than a gas powered bus bursting into flames? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/4 "2023-05-12T15:12:17Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Is this more likely than a gas powered bus bursting into flames? No as gas powered buses don’t have lithium so no lithium fueled flames. It’s a smart Alec answer for a reason, children can go up in diesel flames 100 to 1 over EV, but the cry will be for that one time. In reality ICE’s are more likely to go up in flames then EV’s though EV’s that do are usually a worse fire. Part of this may be because EV’s are relatively new and bought by well to do people while our ICE fleet contains some fairly old cars in crappy condition. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/5 "2023-05-12T16:02:14Z")
Good thing they can still get out fast. 2023 and the damned things still don’t have seatbelts. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/6 "2023-05-12T16:10:12Z")
The school district I coach in has seatbelts in al their busses. Whoever designed the seatbelt system is an idiot, though. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/7 "2023-05-12T19:49:07Z")
> **[Why are there no seatbelts on school buses?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342432/why-are-there-no-seatbelts-on-school-buses)** ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/8 "2023-05-12T19:54:55Z")
**Modding** : Maybe seatbelts can be their own thread if you like. It has hijacked this thread at this point. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/9 "2023-05-12T19:59:26Z")
FWIW. > **[Study: Electric Vehicles Involved in Fewest Car Fires - Kelley Blue Book](https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/)** > > A new study shows that hybrid-powered cars are more likely to catch fire than gasoline-powered cars or electric vehicles. Per vehicle sold. It would interesting to see it per mile driven. One does wonder why we are not doing anything about the not EV bus fires. > **[What’s causing all these bus fires? Roadshow](https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/09/more-than-500-bus-fires-a-year-reported-in-us-roadshow/amp/)** > > Know the rules on stopping for school buses. The fines are steep if you violate them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/10 "2023-05-12T20:30:43Z")
I think the OP is a rant in search of a problem. With a small side of preemptive pearl-clutching. Will some idiots complain when an Li-ion bus goes up in smoke? Sure. Will the idea that EV school busses are super-dangerous capture the public imagination? Probably not. Will I be wrong in this prediction? We’ll see. No matter _what_ happens to anything anytime anywhere, somebody with an online following will try to get clicks by saying it’s the result of a conspiracy and somebody else with an online following will try to catastrophize this as a new thing to fear. That’s simply the dull drone of the WWW running. Kinda like the sound of a distant freeway, we just have to get used to it. Society is still learning, but it’s learning pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/11 "2023-05-13T23:15:57Z")
We have mandated school bus evacuation drills, I believe mandated by the state. Does the OP believe these aren’t effective in getting kids off the bus before it becomes a good place to make s’mores? > [@DSeid](#): > > FWIW. > [https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/](https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/) > > Per vehicle sold. It would interesting to see it per mile driven. > > One does wonder why we are not doing anything about the not EV bus fires. > > [What’s causing all these bus fires? Roadshow](https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/09/more-than-500-bus-fires-a-year-reported-in-us-roadshow/amp/) With no numbers whatsoever to back this up but I’d bet that there are more old, beater ICE cars catching fire than new ones still under warranty. Given the scarcity of 10 year or older EVs I think a fair comparison would need to include age of car/model year. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/12 "2023-05-14T00:52:49Z")
Fair that and [the numbers](https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/US-Fire-Problem/osvehiclefires.pdf) support the point. Although not so much so for ones associated with collisions and overturns. > [@](#): > > vehicles that are at least 10 years old are at greater risk of a fire started by a mechanical or electrical failure or malfunction. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/13 "2023-05-14T02:15:53Z")
The OP is simply a claim that the novelty of EV bus fires will ensure an overwhelmingly negative response that will overcome any/all logic to the contrary. Once one assumes our society is utterly juvenline / ignorant / irrational, then yes, everything, new or old, is something to fear. But the fault is in the assumption, not in the consequences of the assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/14 "2023-05-14T14:22:37Z")
Even an ICE bus is still at risk of lithium fueled infernos. A modern school bus likely carries as many lithium batteries as it does student backpacks. This is already a recognized concern in the boating world. > **[Are lithium-ion batteries to blame for recent boat blazes?](https://www.boatinternational.com/yachts/news/yacht-fires-lithium-ion-batteries)** > > A spate of boat blazes have led to warnings of keeping lithium-ion batteries on board. But are they to blame? Sam Fortescue investigates... ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/15 "2023-05-14T14:37:14Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > We have mandated school bus evacuation drills, I believe mandated by the state. Does the OP believe these aren’t effective in getting kids off the bus before it becomes a good place to make s’mores? Do these buses have ejection seats? > **[An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris Fire consumed...](https://www.facebook.com/indianfireservices/videos/5812126598820587/)** > > An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris > > Fire consumed an electric RATP bus on April 29 in Paris. No injuries. > > The explosion... and [https://www.google.com/search?q=ev+bus+fire+video&oq=ev+bus+fire+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i512l5j69i61l2.5618j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:241f7698,vid:T71cVhxG\_v4](https://www.google.com/search?q=ev+bus+fire+video&oq=ev+bus+fire+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i512l5j69i61l2.5618j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:241f7698,vid:T71cVhxG_v4) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/16 "2023-05-14T16:27:59Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > A modern school bus likely carries as many lithium batteries as it does student backpacks. This is already a recognized concern in the boating world. The airline world too is concerned that there’s a Li-ion battery in nearly every carry-on, purse, or pocket. They’re prohibited in checked luggage, but because that restriction runs on the honor system and the public is not honorable, we know that’s an abject fail too. We carry equipment to manage & contain battery fires. And have trained the FAs to handle these fires of passenger-carried gizmos. Which are happening although none disastrously so. Yet. Cargo jet fires involving Li-ion in cargo is a whole 'nother kettle of very nasty fish. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/17 "2023-05-14T16:35:33Z")
I know that when my workplace receives anything containing lithium ion batteries, the box has a big label on it indicating the presence of the batteries with a warning that it can only be sent via cargo flight. But the OP is kind of jumping the gun in that there hasn’t, as far as I know, been any EV school bus fire nor has anyone called for the banning of EV school buses. There’s enough stupidity in the world that there’s no need to imagine new ways people can be dumb. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-going-to-stop-bbqing-children-ev-school-bus-fires/983950/18 "2023-05-14T16:41:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There’s enough stupidity in the world that there’s no need to imagine new ways people can be dumb. Quite right. Or the way I said it: They’re going to be reliably dumb, so that means there’s no reason to listen to them being reliably dumb.