# How are we not in the Fourth Reich? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2026, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444 "2026-01-07T20:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2026, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/21 "2026-01-08T19:57:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, you did not see the video where none of that happened. The ICE agent who shot was in front of the car, and from the angle of the video you cant see what happened to him. > **[Video shows moment ICE officer fatally shoots woman in Minneapolis | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2026/01/07/us/video/ice-shooting-minneapolis-digvid)** > > Video taken by a witness shows the moment an ICE officer fatally shot a woman in a vehicle in Minneapolis on Wednesday. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > because AFAIK and I’d love to be wrong, there’s little if any training required to be an ICE agent. 27 weeks for basic and 13 more weeks, so 40 weeks. Plus You have to learn to speak Spanish if you dont already. Plus specialized training. Like I said, that ICE agent panicked and over-reacted. What he did was wrong. that is different than the deliberate murder of a hundred Jewish people > [@Cervaise](#): > > None of this is accurate or has any relationship to objective reality. I look forward to your retraction and apology. . Look at the video yourself- Can you see what happened to the Agent who shot? But after watching and rewatching, I can not see the other agent getting his toes run over, altho it was close. So I was wrong there. > [@commasense](#): > > We also need to ensure that the mid-term elections are free and fair. Right. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2026, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/22 "2026-01-08T22:00:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 27 weeks for basic and 13 more weeks, so 40 weeks. Plus You have to learn to speak Spanish if you dont already. Plus specialized training. Okay, that sounds reasonable. But do they also have to pass background checks and psych evals? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Like I said, that ICE agent panicked and over-reacted. What he did was wrong. that is different than the deliberate murder of a hundred Jewish people. It’s different, but I think not un-related. The Holocaust started small, with people being detained and so forth at random, one or a few at a time. It took a year or so to escalate to entire neighborhoods being rounded up and sent to camps. Heck, if it had started like that, people probably would have fought back. But it escalated, gradually but steadily, until it couldn’t be stopped or turned back. I remember a discussion once about bullying, and about how the Greatest Generation never understood why “Stand up for yourself!” was not always the solution. Because they were the generation who stood up to Hitler, and they won. To which I say, “But how much did he get away with while people were following orders or looking the other way?” I did see something encouraging (linked in another thread) An off-duty ICE officer [has a Nazi tattoo](https://www.commondreams.org/news/vance-ice-door-to-door), and some guy is berating him for it. Not taunting, spoiling for a fight, but just firmly stating that the tattoo is disgusting, his job is disgusting, and that guy had better not hang around after his shift. So someone can still do that with, I hope, no consequences. (But how 'bout that background check on the tattoo guy? He was enough into White Power to get that tattoo, so either no one cared, or Og forbid, it made him more appealing as a candidate.) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2026, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/23 "2026-01-08T23:55:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Tell that to people who have been murdered or imprisoned or deported. How “free” are the dead? Nations like Finland, Norway, Sweden, etc tend to consistently score near the top for concepts like democracy and freedom, and they have injustices too. I don’t see this as a black/white division. The US is moving in the wrong direction like many other nations. But concepts like freedom and democracy are a spectrum running the gamut from Finland to North Korea, not a clean dividing line. The US public hasn’t even touched the heavy hitters of rebellion like tax strikes, secession, mass strikes, jury nullification, 2nd amendment, etc. And Trump as much as he wants to, doesn’t have the power of a Putin or Xi. Trump would love to be a dictator, but he is constrained by balances of powers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/24 "2026-01-09T01:28:54Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Okay, that sounds reasonable. But do they also have to pass background checks and psych evals? Yes, all officers and agents have to pass a DEEP background check. Even tho I was only a Civil investigator they did a deep check on me. Armed Agents have to do a psych eval, and if you fail, you dont get to be a armed agent. Note that we know now that last year this same Agent was injured when a car dragged him off. Maybe that had something to do with the over-reaction. Let me make this clear- what he did was wrong- police should not over-react and panic to such an extent they fire on someone and kill them. If he had been a regular police officer, after an internal investigation, they’d make him leave the force. Then the DA would ask the Grand Jury for an indictment. Most of the time those come back as “no true bill”. But ICE is hated and many here would go “Hang him!!- no! hangings too good for him!!!” > [@Rilchiam](#): > > It’s different, but I think not un-related. This incident is totally unrelated. Now if we are talking about the mass round ups and the concentration camps- which we are NOT- then you’d have a point. But that is a different topic, and a legit cause for ire. But one police officer over-reacting and panicking is nothing at all like the **Sturmabteilung**. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > An off-duty ICE officer [has a Nazi tattoo](https://www.commondreams.org/news/vance-ice-door-to-door), and some guy is berating him for it. I do not see that in the cite linked. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/25 "2026-01-09T01:59:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, all officers and agents have to pass a DEEP background check. Even tho I was only a Civil investigator they did a deep check on me. Which means they would be _more_ stringent for you, since your job wasn’t “be a racist thug”. And any evaluation they do is going to be to make sure the prospective ICE member is properly bigoted and violent, and lacks moral scruples. _Not_ to ensure they are professional and law-abiding, that’s the opposite of what they want in a thug army. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/26 "2026-01-09T02:19:11Z")
**DrDeth** : Scroll down; it’s the second video, on X. Just above the paragraph that starts “Under the Fourth Amendment…” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/27 "2026-01-09T02:28:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which means they would be _more_ stringent for you, since your job wasn’t “be a racist thug”. Nor are ICE agents. Look they work for a racist, following the supposed lawful order of same racist. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And any evaluation they do is going to be to make sure the prospective ICE member is properly bigoted and violent, and lacks moral scruples. That is not how the Civil Service works. And Ross was hired about a decade ago. **When Obama was president.** > **[Who is Jonathan Ross? ICE agent who shot Minneapolis woman](https://www.newsweek.com/jonathan-ross-ice-agent-shooting-minneapolis-minnesota-11332093)** > > According to court documents, the officer was injured as part of a team trying to apprehend a man in the country illegally last year. _Good, a mother of three who was driving about a mile from where George Floyd was killed by police in 2020, was fatally shot Wednesday in her Honda Pilot after being approached by a group of federal agents working in south Minneapolis. [Video shows an Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer then abruptly pulling his weapon and firing](https://www.newsweek.com/ice-shooting-timeline-video-analysis-of-renee-goods-death-11328177) at least two shots at close range as the Pilot accelerated forward despite repeated commands to stop._ _Video does not clearly show whether the SUV struck the officer, and it’s unclear if the woman had prior contact with ICE agents. After the shooting, the vehicle slammed into two parked cars before coming to a stop._ and what did i say earlier? > [@DrDeth](#): > > But ICE is hated and many here would go “Hang him!!- no! hangings too good for him!!!” > [@Rilchiam](#): > > **DrDeth** : Scroll down; it’s the second video, on X. I dont trust X, and where is the evidence he is ICE? > **[Media Matters Hires Ex-New Yorker Fact Checker Who Falsely Said Ice Agent Had...](https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62140808/)** > > IMDb, the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. same person? [Media Matters Hires Ex-New Yorker Fact Checker Who Falsely Said Ice Agent Had Nazi Tattoo](https://www.thewrap.com/media-matters-ex-new-yorker-fact-checker-talia-lavin-ice-agent-false-nazi-tattoo/) _Media Matters for America has hired Talia Lavin, a former fact checker for The New Yorker, less than a month after she left the magazine over a tweet falsely accusing a disabled [Ice](https://www.imdb.com/company/co0498613/) employee of having a Nazi tattoo._ The posts i find confirming that are on Reddit and Instagram, etc. Also this- [https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/verify/verify-ice-agents-tattoo-divides-social-media-over-nazi-accusations/83-568299711](https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/verify/verify-ice-agents-tattoo-divides-social-media-over-nazi-accusations/83-568299711) But it might not disqualify someone if the tattoo was old enough. It all depends. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/28 "2026-01-09T02:29:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But there was no coup. We had an election, the country chose to gave power to assholes, and now we’re seeing the expected results. That’s different from being in a totalitarian country. Isn’t that how the Nazis came to power, tho? They were elected into office, and when they had the reigns of government they started remaking it into their vision. Seems like that’s what has started to happen here. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The US public hasn’t even touched the heavy hitters of rebellion like tax strikes, secession, mass strikes, jury nullification, 2nd amendment, etc. Yeah, take a look at what the Iranians are currently doing - we aren’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/29 "2026-01-09T02:33:32Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Isn’t that how the Nazis came to power, tho? They were elected into office, and when they had the reigns of government they started remaking it into their vision. Seems like that’s what has started to happen here. Maybe. But not because of one cop doing a stupid and tragic thing as he panicked. We are not going the way of the 3rd Reich. I mean trump just isnt that competent, altho he is getting that insane. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/30 "2026-01-09T02:35:38Z")
No, that one straw is not breaking the camel’s back. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/31 "2026-01-09T02:35:46Z")
No argument. I was just commenting on the state of affairs at a macro level. ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/32 "2026-01-09T02:52:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 27 weeks for basic and 13 more weeks, so 40 weeks. Plus You have to learn to speak Spanish if you dont already. Plus specialized training. Not according to [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/08/ice-recruitment-immigration-enforcement-billions/684000/). > “New deportation officers at ICE used to receive about five months of federal-law-enforcement training. Administration officials have cut that time roughly in half, partly by eliminating Spanish-language courses. Academy training was shortened to 47 days, three officials told me, the number picked because Trump is the 47th president. DHS officials said the training will run six days a week for eight weeks.” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/33 "2026-01-09T02:52:57Z")
**DrDeth** No, neither of those are the guy I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/34 "2026-01-09T02:55:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor are ICE agents. No, they definitely are a racist thug army. Racist terror, persecution and brutality are their entire reason to exist. They’re the equivalent of a government-supported Ku Klux Klan. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/35 "2026-01-09T03:25:19Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > That’s why it’s up to us to elect fighters in the Democratic primaries for the mid-term elections. That’s the emphasis of [Indivisible](https://indivisible.org), a non-violent, progressive organization with independent chapters in every state. We need more Democrats like Mamdani, Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, AOC, etc., to push out Schumer and Jeffries and confront Trump head on. I like Schumer and Jeffries, But under a strongman president who rules by decree, Congress is of much lessened importance, so who those leaders has low impact. The biggest remaining importance of congress might be senate confirmation if a SCOTUS seat opens up, so it would be very nice if the Democrats could get 51 senators. The media environment will have a lot to do with whether the slide towards autocracy can be arrested in 2028. The biggest recent loss I see is CBS News. If paramount gets CNN, that will be bad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/36 "2026-01-09T05:11:50Z")
> [@Disinfectus](#): > > Not according to [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/08/ice-recruitment-immigration-enforcement-billions/684000/). I dont trust “some unnamed people told me”, nor the Atlantic. But as I said, the Spanish classes are not always required, and even after basic training there is more training. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > **DrDeth** No, neither of those are the guy I linked to. Sure, but still unverified X comment. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they definitely are a racist thug army. Racist terror, persecution and brutality are their entire reason to exist. Sure, President _Obama_ was hiring a racist thug army. Riiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/37 "2026-01-09T05:40:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont trust “some unnamed people told me”, nor the Atlantic. Why distrust the Atlantic? They are top notch journalists. But in case you are still skeptical would you accept [ice.gov](https://www.ice.gov/careers/faqs)? > [What are the training requirements for newly hired ERO deportation officers?](https://www.ice.gov/careers/faqs#what-are-the-training-requirements-for-newly-hired-ero-deportation-officers) > As a new deportation officer you will be required to attend and successfully complete both, a five-week ERO Spanish Language Training Program ([DSP](https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2016/ero-newhire-spanish.pdf)) and the 16-week ERO Basic Immigration Law Enforcement Training Program ([BIETP](https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2016/ero-preacademy-handbook.pdf)) at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) as well as successfully complete of the Physical Abilities Assessmentto continue your career as a deportation officer. So 21 weeks total of which 5 is Spanish language. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/38 "2026-01-09T06:27:55Z")
DrDeth: My point was this: The video shows a guy who has a clearly visible Nazi tattoo (SS, not a swastika) and who does not deny being an ICE agent. Someone behind the camera is harshly telling him his tattoo is disgusting, his job is disgusting, he’s not welcome when he’s in uniform, and he’s **definitely** not welcome _out_ of uniform. And the (presumed) ICE agent does not retaliate. So if time goes on and there are no secondary consequences for the person or people responsible for that video… …then that gives me hope that we are not yet in the Fourth Reich. I am flashing on Harry Turtledove’s [Great War series](https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Freedom_Party), though. Gee, back in the 2000s, I read about an alternate-history fascist party’s rise to power, and the resulting holocaust, and was shocked and fascinated and glad that I was living in the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/39 "2026-01-09T07:29:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, President _Obama_ was hiring a racist thug army. No, President Bush did. Obama just inherited it. I recall how the less racist members at the time complained how the racists were molding it into their own image, but nothing was done. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2026, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444/40 "2026-01-09T09:45:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Let us take yesterdays tragic incident. It _appears_ ICE surrounded her car, and she tried to drive away. Doubtless some ICE agent got his toes run over or was hit at very very low speeds and has a nasty painful bruise- whereupon he panicked and over reacted and shot her. Horrible, but likely not a crime on his part. In any normal police force, he’d have his badge taken away, but not convicted. Wow. Go look at the actual video. Good was trying to leave when ICE surrounded her, not the other way around. The agent “overreacted”? OH _that’s alright then_ [/sarcasm]. We have armed, masked, thugs that are _overreacting, panicking_ and _shooting people dead_ in our streets. This is NOT a “normal police force”. > [@DrDeth](#): > > oems fantasy about the car being "weaponized’ is ridiculous of course. It’s not fantasy and it’s not ridiculous. It’s part and parcel of this administration’s efforts to frame any sort of opposition to them as “domestic terrorism”. It’s yet another cynical effort by someone in this administration to use someone’s death to the administration’s advantage. > [@DrDeth](#): > > We are getting a mite hysterical here, this is nothing at all like the start of the 3rd Reich Go study history. We’re not at Kristallnacht, but we are on the road going towards it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-are-we-not-in-the-fourth-reich/1026444.md?page=3)