# How bad are circuses? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758 "2011-07-20T20:40:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/21 "2011-07-20T23:05:45Z")
Moving to IMHO from GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/22 "2011-07-20T23:10:47Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > My guess would be that there are animal parks–of varying repute–out there that wouldn’t hesitate to take in the kind of exotic animals that would be cast off by a circus. I don’t know if they would be treated better or worse. One of the large circuses places retired elephants in zoos, hated just as much by Peta. I beg your pardon, you more or less said that. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/23 "2011-07-20T23:49:54Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > I am not aware of any current great zoo animal shortage. It is my guess that if the circuses close then all the workers will be laid off and all/most of the animals will be killed. Why would they just kill the animals when they could sell them to another circus? ---
**Author:** ![PapSett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@PapSett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PapSett)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/24 "2011-07-21T00:05:03Z")
I know for a fact there are animal sanctuaries that will take in performing animals that are no longer needed; one of them is The Exotic Feline Rescue Center in Indiana , that I have visited MANY times, and another is PAWS- Performing Animal Welfare Service (I think that’s the full name) in California, run by Pat Derby, which I contribute to financially when I can. Anyone that things the animala would just be killed… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/25 "2011-07-21T00:21:29Z")
> [@PapSett](#): > > PAWS- Performing Animal Welfare Service (I think that’s the full name) in California, run by Pat Derby, which I contribute to financially when I can. I seem to recall that peta likes PAWS. Do you know? ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/26 "2011-07-21T00:31:33Z")
Some elephants are retired to the Elephant Sanctuary near Hohenwald, TN. [The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_Sanctuary,_Hohenwald) There, they are treated well in what is close to their natural habitat for the remainder of their retirement. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/27 "2011-07-21T00:31:44Z")
Right now, there aren’t a lot of circuses in the US, but generally they follow guidelines laid out by the ASPCA. It doesn’t make much sense for a circus to deliberately mistreat their animals, especially since they are expensive to replace. This doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but it’s not regular practice. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/28 "2011-07-21T01:00:55Z")
> [@missred](#): > > Some elephants are retired to the Elephant Sanctuary near Hohenwald, TN. [The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_Sanctuary,_Hohenwald) > > There, they are treated well in what is close to their natural habitat for the remainder of their retirement. And [kill their handlers](http://www.elephant-news.com/index.php?id=1110). Sorry, “caretakers”. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/29 "2011-07-21T01:01:40Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > 1. My guess would be that there are animal parks–of varying repute–out there that wouldn’t hesitate to take in the kind of exotic animals that would be cast off by a circus. > > 2. …future generations of animals would be subject to that treatment, regardless of what happens to the current one. 1. So it’s complete conjecture on your part that there are animal parks or zoos that would take in the exotic animals ? And it’s based entirely on your conjecture that zoos or parks have the extra space, extra cash, and the desire to take in excess spoiled animals? 2. So if no future animals are in circuses, then it would be better for these animals not to be born at all? What kind of “treatment”? Besides, circus animals are not left uncared for to suffer and die of disease, nor are they eaten while still alive like their wild counterparts. Nor are circus animals slaughtered as soon as they become adults like cows and pigs. Some would say that Circus animals have a better, safer, life than their cousins who are wild and still living(and dying) in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/30 "2011-07-21T01:07:51Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann I am not aware of any current great zoo animal shortage. It is my guess that if the circuses close then all the workers will be laid off and all/most of the animals will be killed. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Why would they just kill the animals when they could sell them to another circus? I think the point/intent of the OP is to get rid of ALL circuses, meaning that there would be no other circus in existance to buy them. All the circuses would be gone. Moreover, if there are any zoos or parks out there that are well run then they would already have their ideal optimum number of elephants and would not want to buy and feed and excess unneeded number of additional elephants. OTOH, if they are not well run,then who knows how any extra animals would be treated? Pet elephants are not cheap to care for. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/31 "2011-07-21T01:15:55Z")
[Riddle’s Elephant Sanctuary](http://www.elephantsanctuary.org/default2.asp) takes any elephant, particularly troublesome males whose only alternative is being put down. You are quite correct that elephants are expensive to feed, and the bad press from peta has meant much less money for Riddle, and much more for Hohenwald. ---
**Author:** ![Mewl\_Dear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Mewl\_Dear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mewl_Dear)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/32 "2011-07-21T01:29:12Z")
You all missed the point. The reason not to go to a circus is CLOWNS!!! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/33 "2011-07-21T01:45:05Z")
> [@Mewl\_Dear](#): > > You all missed the point. The reason not to go to a circus is CLOWNS!!! Dear G-d, yes! They are evil and scary. Thanks for the wake up call! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/34 "2011-07-21T01:58:47Z")
I grew up going to the circus and loved it. At some point I started feeling guilty, not so much because the animals were being mistreated per se, but just because I don’t feel good about them being caged and doing tricks, hence the phrase “I’m not your circus bear”. However, I know a couple who both work for Barnum & Bailey and based on their personalitys (both exceedingly kind and seemingly lovers of all living things)and different things they’ve said, not neccessarily trying to convince anyone of anything but just in the normal course of conversation, I’ve come to feel slightly better about it. Still won’t go to a circus but I try to keep hope that they portray the general climate of the industry. You don’t need to feel guilty; the show will go on regardless of whether or not you attend. If your son is old enough, maybe it can open a discussion about your and his feelings about what roles animals play in the scope of things (afterward, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/35 "2011-07-21T02:04:53Z")
For what it’s worth, [here’s what they say about it themselves](http://www.ringling.com/TextContent.aspx?id=11810&parentID=320&assetFolderID=342): > [@Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus](#): > > Q: What happens to the animals when they are too old to perform? > A: Of the animals you see performing with Ringling Bros., some belong to us, and others join us for a specific amount of time and are owned by private individuals. When an animal reaches retirement age while living with us, Ringling Bros. finds healthy and stimulating environments that provide excellent care for the remainder of their lives. Our Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Center for Elephant Conservation® is a shining example. Our elephants spend their “golden years” with our herd in Polk County, Florida, under the watchful eye of animal care experts. We also have a companion program where a retired Ringling Bros. elephant will be selected to live at a zoo or facility and] help these communities maintain social herds for their existing elephants. As of 2001, retired Ringling Bros. elephants now make their homes at The Phoenix Zoo and The Niabi Zoo. Many of our big cats retire to Wildlife on Easy Street, a sanctuary located in Tampa, Florida, that is home to 23 species and subspecies of wild cats. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/36 "2011-07-21T02:34:37Z")
The Little Rock Zoo has two [elephants](http://www.littlerockzoo.com/elephants) retired from Ringling Brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/37 "2011-07-21T03:28:24Z")
Ask any musician what it’s like to be cramped in a van with three other guys, with gear for a 6 month stretch. Elephants being as smart as they are probably ain’t to crazy about being shipped around the country in big rigs. At least musicians get to get their ya-ya’s out for 1 hour a night. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/38 "2011-07-21T03:29:54Z")
> [@Mewl\_Dear](#): > > You all missed the point. The reason not to go to a circus is CLOWNS!!! So, if we all stop going to circuses, the circuses will go out of business, and they’ll be forced to kill all the clowns? I’m OK with that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PapSett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@PapSett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PapSett)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/39 "2011-07-21T04:43:29Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I seem to recall that peta likes PAWS. Do you know? Not to my knowledge! God forbid-I would never give them a singe thin dime. Ms Derby used to actually train animals for TV, commercials & movies in the 60’s& 70s. If I _ever_ find out peta supports PAWS I would be DONE with them. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758/40 "2011-07-21T05:03:25Z")
I used to work in circuses, and I can speak to some of the points here. Full disclosure, I didn’t usually work directly with animals, and I haven’t looked at any recent studies. And I’m not even going to address Susanann’s comments, because she clearly doesn’t have the first clue about what she’s talking about. My experience with performing animals is that they are usually quite well cared for. Beyond that, many seemed to enjoy working with people. This varied among species however, with elephants generally being the most naturally cooperative with people. As was pointed out up-thread, it would be extremely foolish for a trainer to abuse an animal that: A. Is really, really expensive and represents your livelihood and… B. Can kill you if you piss it off. Make no mistake - elephants, lions, tigers etc are not tamed. They are TRAINED, but they are still wild animals. Disrespect them, and they WILL kill you. This was emphasized to me by more than one trainer. You may think a trainer might be motivated to abuse an animal to teach certain difficult behaviors. I’m sure a few stupid ones have tried, but you really can’t beat an animal into performing consistently. All the training I’ve observed was cooperative, and often didn’t involve food as a reinforcer of desired behaviors. Rather, it was the relationship with the trainer that often motivated the animal. I’ve observed incredible acts of trust between trainers and animals, especially elephants. Often these are family run acts with small children participating. Would you beat an elephant and then trust it to take your 4-year old daughter by the hand every night in a circus ring? There’s also this - with some animals the training can appear abusive, but this can be misleading. You may see a trainer slap a bear with an implement. This is in hope of simply getting its attention. They have such a thick layer of fat that you or I could wind up and hit it with say, a hose, as hard as possible and just maybe get it to turn around and look at you. Or it might just lumber off and try to take a nap. All of this isn’t to say that there aren’t any problems with performing animals, and I can understand some people simply don’t want to see it. Cirque du Soleil (which is a “real” circus) made the decision to do without animals and it’s worked very well for them. I personally don’t have a problem with it based on my experiences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-are-circuses/589758.md?page=3)