# How bad is the DC Cinematic Universe going to implode? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593 "2016-05-01T13:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/41 "2016-05-03T03:20:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And also: “Let me get this straight. You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands; and your plan, is to _blackmail_ this person?” [beat] “Good luck.” BvS made jokes. ‘You don’t want to pick a fight with this person.’ ‘I thought she was with you.’ ‘I figured. The cape.’ YMMV on if they were _successful_ jokes. I really don’t think the tone of the movie, or its supposed lack of humor is a problem at all. It was just a poorly-told story. That’s it (in my opinion). That’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/42 "2016-05-03T04:02:54Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I don’t think the issue is a lack of humor; the issue is the lack of hope and optimism. They seem to be trying to slowly fix this which makes me…er…hopeful. I’m not sure if you and I watched the same same five out of the last seven Batman movies… But, honestly, though, I’d _hate_ to have to helm a Batman or a Superman story, especially in this day and age. The characters are _so_ iconic, _so_ larger than life, have _so_ much of a history—I’d even say _baggage_, in a way—with such successful, nostalgic adaptations in the past, and people get _so_ wrapped up in their involvement with the characters, that it’s going to be _impossible_ to live up all of the audience’s expectations—and they’re seemingly apt to regard any shortcoming as a killing insult… I think Mohammed is the only religious figure it’d be harder to make a movie about. And I think that’s actually for _fewer_, if more acute, reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/43 "2016-05-03T04:11:45Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think you can take it further than that. > > Never mind the disappointment that was **Incredible Hulk** , which failed to even double its budget; consider what else came out after the hit that was **Iron Man** : > > - **Captain America** , which grossed more than 2.5x its budget, which was (a) good news, and (b) a better return on investment than **Batman Begins** ; and > > - **Thor** , which grossed almost _3x_ its budget, which was even better news; and > > - **Iron Man 2** , which grossed _more_ than 3x its budget. > > Those were what rightly gave people hope for a successful **Avengers** movie. You noted that none of 'em grossed as much as **Batman v Superman** – but let me add that, given their budgets, none of 'em came _close_ to doing what **BvS** is still doing; yeah, it’s at $862 million and counting, but it’s also _at 3.45x and counting_. > > If those Marvel Cinematic Universe films had pulled in an extra sixty-five million apiece, each of 'em _still_ would’ve – well, yes, failed to gross as much as **BvS** ; that goes without saying. But they also would’ve still failed to hit the 3.45x mark. The thing with a franchise though is the success of each movie is ultimately measured by how much it makes you want to watch the next movie in the series. Look at the Matrix series. _The Matrix_ made $463,517,383. _The Matrix Reloaded_ made $742,128,461. So was _The Matrix Reloaded_ a bigger success? No, because _The Matrix Revolutions_ only made $427,343,298. After _Matrix_ the franchise was moving up; after _Reloaded_ it was moving down. In DC terms, _Batman and Robin_ was the nadir. It almost killed the Batman franchise. _Batman Begins_ did okay but it restored the reputation of the franchise. _The Dark Knight_ and _The Dark Knight Rises_ grew from there. _Batman v Superman_ is now riding on the reputation established by the Nolan films. But will the people that have watched _Batman v Superman_ going to want to see _Justice League_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/44 "2016-05-03T04:40:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The thing with a franchise though is the success of each movie is ultimately measured by how much it makes you want to watch the next movie in the series. > > Look at the Matrix series. _The Matrix_ made $463,517,383. _The Matrix Reloaded_ made $742,128,461. So was _The Matrix Reloaded_ a bigger success? No, because _The Matrix Revolutions_ only made $427,343,298. After _Matrix_ the franchise was moving up; after _Reloaded_ it was moving down. > > In DC terms, _Batman and Robin_ was the nadir. It almost killed the Batman franchise. _Batman Begins_ did okay but it restored the reputation of the franchise. _The Dark Knight_ and _The Dark Knight Rises_ grew from there. _Batman v Superman_ is now riding on the reputation established by the Nolan films. But will the people that have watched _Batman v Superman_ going to want to see _Justice League_? Maybe? As per this here thread, apparently SUICIDE SQUAD is getting tweaked hard to be more entertaining; if that’s true, then it’s not implausible that _“we heard you loud and clear, and we’re gonna give you what you want”_ will be the order of the day for, as well as the explicit sales pitch for, the JUSTICE LEAGUE movie. (I mean, if they _are_ so tweaking SQUAD, then that’s what that _means_, yeah?) Plus maybe get a sunk-costs thing going on, where folks who shelled out cash to see BvS get told, _hey, who was the one guy who defied expectations to absolutely nail some tricky bits of characterization? It was Affleck, wasn’t it? Well, let me just say that Ben Affleck is here, and he has some big important things to say about the making of this film and what it gets right_ – and if they piggyback all of that on a charming Wonder Woman flick that hits it out of the park, then, yeah, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/45 "2016-05-03T06:11:24Z")
[Vox article about Zack Snyder](http://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11565932/zack-snyder-justice-league) > [@](#): > > You could call it “high-brow” comics, but to me, that comic book was just pretty sexy! I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, “This is more my scene.” > […] > Everyone says that about [Christopher Nolan’s] Batman Begins. “Batman’s dark.” I’m like, okay, “No, Batman’s cool.” He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn’t, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that’s how that would go. Well, that sure sounds like fun! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/46 "2016-05-03T06:15:52Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I’m willing to bet it will have plenty of humorous lines and light hearted moments though. Tons. And one of the things I liked is that you can see how the relationships between team members have evolved, without it being yelled in your face. You know, the human bits. Why, yes, it opened here last week, why do you ask? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/47 "2016-05-03T10:03:14Z")
Jesus! Prison rape??? Yes, DC needs to ditch Snyder now. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/48 "2016-05-03T10:43:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Tons. And one of the things I liked is that you can see how the relationships between team members have evolved, without it being yelled in your face. You know, the human bits. > > Why, yes, it opened here last week, why do you ask? 😃 In fact, IMHO the single funniest moment in the movie is a shot of two men smiling - a moment that can only exist following solid character work. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/49 "2016-05-03T12:09:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > [Vox article about Zack Snyder](http://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11565932/zack-snyder-justice-league) > > Well, that sure sounds like fun! In a practical sense, he could be describing something like the TV show, Spartacus, which was quite popular. People do like a lot of sex and violence, at the end of the day. But I’d agree with the general consensus that they also like humor and relatable characters. If you just have sex and violence without those, you’re missing a fairly big aspect of the recipe. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/50 "2016-05-03T12:25:15Z")
As a reminder, no spoilers from other movies in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/51 "2016-05-03T12:48:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The problem with the DC movies is that they’ve confused “serious” with “humorless.” You can address enormously serious issues, respectively, and still allow a little levity to sneak in. I mean, _Schindler’s List_ had more laugh lines than _Batman v. Superman_. When your adolescent power fantasy about men in tights punching space monsters is more solemn than a movie about the _actual Holocaust_, you badly need to recalibrate your approach to the material. Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Zack Snyder has his head so far up his own ass that he’s confused style with substance, and while his ability to create interesting visuals is certainly impressive, he should be directing music videos, not things with plots and characters. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/52 "2016-05-03T13:00:47Z")
Of course, things could be worse… They could let Cannon Group take another swing at it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/53 "2016-05-03T13:08:23Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Of course, things could be worse… Yes, we’re all aware of FANT4STIC. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/54 "2016-05-03T13:58:06Z")
What I will defend Zach Snyder about is I think I see what he is going for in the DC movies and I like the general idea. He is trying to ask the question of what if these heroes were real? What if there was a guy who could do what Superman can do? Or does what Batman does? How would society react? How would that person react? Those are interesting questions to ask and that tone is the main reason I enjoyed BvS. I honestly think we are overdue to a “true” Superman movie. A Superman that is a good person who always does the right thing because it’s the right thing. People keep saying that’s boring but the character has endured for 75 years so I beg to differ on that. But if you aren’t going to do that, at least he chose an interesting direction to go in. ETA: Regarding the recent Fantastic 4. I won’t defend that as a great movie but I will say it’s underrated because it also went into an interesting direction but just failed on execution. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/55 "2016-05-03T14:05:32Z")
I am a Superman fanboy. I even liked Superman Returns. But I hate Zack Snyder’s vision of Superman so I did not see Batman v. Superman, but I did watch Man of Steel. I think he fundamentally doesn’t understand the character and it shows in his movies. Until WB kicks Snyder to the curb, it’s going to be a a rough road. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/56 "2016-05-03T14:17:03Z")
It’s certainly good to see that DC is listening to what the fans want, and trying to change their movies to match it. But there remains the question of whether they’ll succeed. I could easily see, for instance, them misinterpreting a desire for more lightheartedness, and ending up with silly farce (after which, of course, they would say “Well, we made it more lighthearted, and nobody liked that, so let’s go back to dark”). Or maybe they will get it right. I hope so. But I’m not getting my expectations up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/57 "2016-05-03T15:35:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Zack Snyder has his head so far up his own ass that he’s confused style with substance, and while his ability to create interesting visuals is certainly impressive, he should be directing music videos, not things with plots and characters. I would dispute his ability to create interesting visuals. That ability seems limited to painting everything black. > [@Quimby](#): > > What I will defend Zach Snyder about is I think I see what he is going for in the DC movies and I like the general idea. He is trying to ask the question of what if these heroes were real? What if there was a guy who could do what Superman can do? Or does what Batman does? How would society react? How would that person react? Those are interesting questions to ask and that tone is the main reason I enjoyed BvS. Those are interesting questions. But “Just like Ayn Rand predicted” is not an interesting answer. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/58 "2016-05-03T15:52:32Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > What I will defend Zach Snyder about is I think I see what he is going for in the DC movies and I like the general idea. He is trying to ask the question of what if these heroes were real? What if there was a guy who could do what Superman can do? Or does what Batman does? How would society react? How would that person react? Exactly. And I want to see that approach done well, not abandoned for action comedies. I’d rather they bring in directors more capable of handling the concept, not mimic what the other company’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/59 "2016-05-03T16:52:02Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > What I will defend Zach Snyder about is I think I see what he is going for in the DC movies and I like the general idea. He is trying to ask the question of what if these heroes were real? What if there was a guy who could do what Superman can do? Or does what Batman does? How would society react? How would that person react? Those are interesting questions to ask and that tone is the main reason I enjoyed BvS. Questions are nice, one supposes. Bu that’s about the lowest bar possible. Anyone can “raise questions”. You have to have something worthwhile to say about the question. Again, Justice League asked this very same question, explored the darker side of the heroes, and looked at how other people might respond to the kind of threat that superheroes represent. And that was a cartoon show with a fraction of the budget and audience, with a much larger cast. However it drew upon well-established personalities. We’ve never had an introduction to these characters as they are presented in this series of films. _Man of Steel_ managed to run for over 2 hours and failed to tell us a single thing about Superman. I don’t know what he values, who he really cares about, or why he does anything. The audience should never be forced to rely on some outside media to have a basic understanding of the characters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593/60 "2016-05-03T17:44:44Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > _Man of Steel_ managed to run for over 2 hours and failed to tell us a single thing about Superman. I don’t know what he values, who he really cares about, or why he does anything. That seems – overly broad. You don’t know, from **MoS** , that he really cares about his mother? You don’t know that he values his privacy (which is why he takes out that satellite when insisting that he’ll be doing this on his own terms), but that he values saving lives more (which is why, over and over, he abandoned his ‘keep a low profile’ ways to save lives, as we saw on that oil rig)? And that, after he saved lives on the bus, his father advised him in the strongest possible way to help folks only when he can keep people from realizing that Clark Kent has godlike powers? And that’s why he wants to get a job where no one looks twice if he’s in dangerous places while asking questions, the better to learn where he can help people next? And that his reverence for life is so strong that he’s reluctant to kill even to save lives? And that I carefully said “reluctant” there? And that he grew up knowing that making himself known to the public would change the world for better or for worse, and that he put off that responsibility by helping in secret until he had to openly save his adopted world from genocide? And that he’s also quite taken with Lois Lane? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-is-the-dc-cinematic-universe-going-to-implode/753593.md?page=4)