# How Bad Was Claudine Gay's Plagiarism? \[She resigned, Jan 2, 2024\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 21, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945 "2023-12-21T19:14:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/21 "2024-01-02T21:43:21Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I never plagiarized myself, FYI. But it seems like lifting one paragraph out of an entire dissertation doesn’t necessarily call all of her scholarship into question. > > Am I wrong? There are apparently forty different instances, so is this so far outside the norm, something oughta be done about it? Ruth Marcus did a pretty fair-handed [opinion article in WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/23/claudine-gay-harvard-resign-plagiarism/) (paywalled). I was prepared to give Gay the benefit of the doubt, but it seems clear she had a conscious and widespread pattern of using others’ words without attribution, presenting others’ analysis with minor tweaks as if it were her own novel analysis. Let me stipulate a couple of things here: 1. I believe this only came to light because of politically motivated investigations. 2. I don’t think she’s the only professor out there who’s done this, I think this kind of behavior has become normalized. That being the case, the examples I’ve seen are fairly egregious. This behavior is not compatible with keeping one’s position as Director of Admissions at Podunk State, let alone staying on as President of Harvard University. It’s a damned shame the academy didn’t take care of its own corruption until someone else found it. Now conservatives will be walking the halls collecting scalps at their leisure, racking up easy points in their anti-education culture war. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/22 "2024-01-02T21:45:52Z")
I saw some article that listed all the things that were plagiarized (sorry, I can’t remember where I saw it – if I find it again, I’ll link it) and looked at them. (This was a while ago, so I think there have been more since then.) I honestly would call it less plagiarizing than I would “not citing her sources properly” – the vast majority of the cases seemed like things like, she would have a paragraph of background that paraphrased someone else’s content, but then not cite that person. If she’d done it once, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought and just assumed it was carelessness. The number of times she seems to have done it… is not great. (Occasionally, there’s something like, she has similar wording in her acknowledgements to someone else’s acknowledgements. Ehhhhh that bothers me very little. So what if she saw someone else’s acknowledgement section and thought it was cool and wanted to say something similar in hers.) So… to me, it’s not as bad as plagiarizing paragraphs from another novel (if you were a novel writer) or plagiarizing someone else’s original research and passing it off as your own. Both of those I would consider grounds for firing from a professorship or a job. But if she were working under me and I realized a given paper of hers had this not-citing-sources issue, I’d just ask her to put the cite in before submitting the paper; I wouldn’t consider her in trouble or anything. To me the issues are a) the number of times this seems to have happened – it’s sort of like when you have enough misdemeanors, it makes it a felony; and b) when you’re president of Harvard, you rather have to have impeccable scholarship and avoid even the relatively-minor sins of not citing your sources properly. (Again, if it had been once or twice, well, even the president of Harvard might overlook something once or twice. The number of times it’s happened… oof.) I am relieved that she resigned. (Note though that I haven’t read any of her content in context. It could be that she is also claiming to have had ideas that she didn’t have, which would be much more damning. That didn’t seem to be the case from what I’d read out-of-context, but I think I’ve read that other people who have more context say differently.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/23 "2024-01-02T22:44:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > it seems really, really odd that we’d be okay with overt verbal attacks. And what’s the evidence that Harvard was okay with overt verbal attacks? Seriously? Students quietly holding signs in the library saying “free Palestine” is not an overt attack. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/24 "2024-01-02T22:45:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And what’s the evidence that Harvard was okay with overt verbal attacks? Seriously? Go back and read what I was replying to. I was replying to a statement that seemed dismissive of verbal threats. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/25 "2024-01-02T23:23:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And what’s the evidence that Harvard was okay with overt verbal attacks? Seriously? Because it doesn’t depend on context. Racist is racist. She needed a one sentence response and she flubbed it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/26 "2024-01-02T23:34:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Go back and read what I was replying to. I was replying to a statement that seemed dismissive of verbal threats. I’m past the edit window, but this should have read as verbal attacks not threats. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/27 "2024-01-03T00:01:37Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > And what’s the evidence that Harvard was okay with overt verbal attacks? Seriously? > > Because it doesn’t depend on context. Racist is racist. She needed a one sentence response and she flubbed it. I agree she flubbed her testimony to Congress. I’m less convinced that she flubbed the job of actually protecting students. Maybe she did, but what’s the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/28 "2024-01-03T00:22:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe she did, but what’s the evidence? The woman made a public statement on TV in front of a US House of Representatives committee stating that chants threatening Jewish students may or may not violate Harvard’s Code of Conduct depending on context. That’s the evidence. I’m not one to see antisemitism beyond every bush. I’m annoyed at people locally that want to deport people waving Palestinian flags on overpasses, I understand freedom of speech and freedom of association. And I say this as someone who sat on the board of the League for Human Right of B’nai Brith Canada, our version of the ADL. I saw some bad shit back in the earlier days of the Internet. Failing to loudly and clearly proclaim that threats against students of ANY religion due to their religion are unacceptable and this was a dereliction of her duty. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/29 "2024-01-03T00:26:37Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > The woman made a public statement on TV in front of a US House of Representatives committee stating that chants threatening Jewish students may or may not violate Harvard’s Code of Conduct depending on context. …do you think chanting “from the river to the sea” would violate Harvard’s Code of Conduct? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/30 "2024-01-03T00:32:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > do you think chanting “from the river to the sea” would violate Harvard’s Code of Conduct? I’m assuming your position is that it depends on context, I’m personally not playing that game today. This is not about one phrase. It was against a culture of fear felt by Jewish students at Harvard. From her own mouth (or her new publicist): “What I should have had the presence of mind to do in that moment was return to my guiding truth, which is that calls for violence against our Jewish community — threats to our Jewish students — have no place at Harvard, and will never go unchallenged,” Gay said. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/31 "2024-01-03T00:36:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you think chanting “from the river to the sea” would violate Harvard’s Code of Conduct? From the River to the Sea means ethnically cleans all of the Jews to enough people, whether it’s outright or coded, that it should violate any code of conduct and I will not be lectured in any way by a non-Jew about this. They don’t have that privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/32 "2024-01-03T00:36:39Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I’m assuming your position is that it depends on context, …and would you disagree with that? > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I’m personally not playing that game today. It was one of the phrases that was used in the hearing as an example of “chants threatening Jewish students.” It most certainly is relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/33 "2024-01-03T00:38:21Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > From the River to the Sea means ethnically cleans all of the Jews to enough people, whether it’s outright or coded, that it should violate any code of conduct and I will not be lectured in any way by a non-Jew about this. …well here’s your answer, FinsToTheLeft. How about “free Palestine?” ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/34 "2024-01-03T00:39:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How about “free Palestine?” Perfectly acceptable in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/35 "2024-01-03T00:42:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How about “free Palestine?” From Hamas, sure. You don’t seem to understand this is not about Israel vs. Palestine. This is about attacking Jewish students for being Jewish. Do you believe it’s against the Harvard Code of Conduct to threaten any other member of the Harvard Community due to their religious beliefs? This is a yes or no kind of answer. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/36 "2024-01-03T01:00:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Let me stipulate a couple of things here: > > 1. I believe this only came to light because of politically motivated investigations. > 2. I don’t think she’s the only professor out there who’s done this, I think this kind of behavior has become normalized. > > That being the case, the examples I’ve seen are fairly egregious. This behavior is not compatible with keeping one’s position as Director of Admissions at Podunk State, let alone staying on as President of Harvard University. Thank you for your thoughtful reply, this is kind of what I was looking for. It absolutely was politically motivated to bring her down this way, but, well, they wouldn’t have been able to do that if she hadn’t plagiarized others’ work. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/37 "2024-01-03T01:09:06Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > From Hamas, sure. …are there Hamas on campus? > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > You don’t seem to understand this is not about Israel vs. Palestine. This is about attacking Jewish students for being Jewish. Then why did you bring up Hamas? Jewish students absolutely should not be attacked for being Jewish. These are things that should absolutely be against the code of conduct. Two of the examples of Jewish students being attacked for being Jewish bought up in the hearing were the phrases “from the river to the sea” and “free Palestine.” Both are relevant here, especially when we are talking about context. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Do you believe it’s against the Harvard Code of Conduct to threaten any other member of the Harvard Community due to their religious beliefs? This is a yes or no kind of answer. The question in the hearing was ““At Harvard, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard’s rules of bullying and harassment?” Stefanik asked.” And in the context of the hearing, “from the river to the sea” was regarded as a call for genocide. Is this something you agree with, or do you think it could depend on context? Because my answer to “do I think it’s against the Harvard Code of Conduct to threaten any other member of the Harvard Community due to their religious beliefs” is yes. Do I think “from the river to the sea” is threatening other members due to their religious belief? I think it depends on _context_. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/38 "2024-01-03T01:28:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And in the context of the hearing, “from the river to the sea” was regarded as a call for genocide. Is this something you agree with, or do you think it could depend on context? It is is intended as a threat, so yes I do, but again this is not what the discussion is about. Its is about generalized threats against Jews. Either it is acceptable or not, I say not. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …are there Hamas on campus? There is distinct lack of comprehension here. Does “from the River to the Sea Palestine Will Be From Hamas at Harvard” make any sense whatsoever? Or do you think Hamas as an organization that puts Palestinians at risk while they rob Gaza blind of aid supplies supposed to be funny? Again, I sense a hijack of the topic, but I’m not going to junior moderate. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/39 "2024-01-03T01:34:32Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Do you believe it’s against the Harvard Code of Conduct to threaten any other member of the Harvard Community due to their religious beliefs? This is a yes or no kind of answer. Not that I can see. I googled: Harvard “code of conduct” And I am not finding any such overall document. In my opinion, given how much federal funding they take, these sort of universities should adopt the standard of the first amendment as interpreted by courts. By that standard, you can be required to have a parade permit. And you won’t be given a parade permit to disrupt class instruction, or late at night when most people want to sleep. As for threats, it depends. Generally, you can threaten a group, even with genocide, but not individuals. I think the real reason for these hearings is that the Republicans, who organized them, feel that right-wing students do not get the same freedom to express themselves as do others. Despite reading a fair amount about these issues, I am still not sure whether this is really true. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945/40 "2024-01-03T01:40:36Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > It is is intended as a threat, so yes I do, …but if it isn’t? > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > but again this is not what the discussion is about. Its is about generalized threats against Jews. Its about Claudine Gay’s response during the hearing, that was full of bad faith posturing and “gotcha” questioning. Her answer was _bad_. _Unquestionably_ bad. But in context, she was talking about statements used in the hearing that _included_ “from the river to the sea.” > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > There is distinct lack of comprehension here. Does “from the River to the Sea Palestine Will Be From Hamas at Harvard” make any sense whatsoever? I’m talking about the hearings. “From the river to the sea” was mentioned multiple times as a genocidal phrase used to attack Jewish students. Go read the transcripts. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Or do you think Hamas as an organization that puts Palestinians at risk while they rob Gaza blind of aid supplies supposed to be funny? Again, I sense a hijack of the topic, but I’m not going to junior moderate. ??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bad-was-claudine-gays-plagiarism-she-resigned-jan-2-2024/994945.md?page=3)