# How big a problem is "voting fraud" in the U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825 "2005-05-07T16:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/21 "2005-05-09T14:36:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s all we seem to be getting – either rumors or isolated anectdotes. Come on, **Bricker, furt, Mr. Moto, Evil One, cmkeller,** everybody who raised the specter of “voting fraud” in my earlier thread on the Count Every Vote Act: Where is your proof? I have offered numerous proof of voting irregularities on these boards in the past. A search would demonstrate that I have contributed on this subject, with cites. You seem to feel that these matters can only be treated by threads that you begin yourself. It has been your MO lately. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/22 "2005-05-09T14:52:04Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > He wasn’t a Republican. He was a Democratic-Republican. It was 1812. I’m pretty sure that by 1812, he’d already been lured to the Republican party. Aren’t they also the ones who nominated him for Vice President? As an aside, that was meant to show ralph124c that this was something both parties were guilty of, and not some corrupt tool of the Democrats. Whichever party is in power at redistricting time is guilty of this, and the ones who protest the loudest are often the ones who took advantage of it previously. Take the Texas situation for example. While I applauded the Democrats when they ran off to Oklahoma to postpone the gerrymandering of the Republicans in power, they had done the exact same thing when they were in power, and I would have applauded the Republicans had they done the same thing. It needs to stop, and if you wait until the Democrats control the majority of the country, I’ll still be saying the same thing. Of course, all of that is a different debate (and one that is currently active). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/23 "2005-05-09T15:02:06Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I said it was rumored. Well, let’s be clear here. You stated that it was rumored that Civil War veterans were voting. **BrainGlutton** called “cite” on your claim: > [@](#): > > Chicago has long permitted the Dead to vote…The “graveyard vote” has kept the Daleys in office for a long time. You didn’t preface _that_ claim by stating that it was rumored, so you got called on it. On a side note, **ralph124c** , I not only call cite, I call bullshit. Why do you even attempt to throw out such unsubstantiated BS in GD? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/24 "2005-05-09T15:04:26Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I’m pretty sure that by 1812, he’d already been lured to the Republican party. Aren’t they also the ones who nominated him for Vice President? The Republican Party didn’t exist until the 1850’s, so you’re mistaken on the details here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/25 "2005-05-09T15:10:11Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I’m pretty sure that by 1812, he’d already been lured to the Republican party. Aren’t they also the ones who nominated him for Vice President? That would, again, have been the Democratic-Republicans. The Republican party wasn’t founded until 1854, and ran their first presidential candidate in 1856 (General Fremont). More generally, regarding voter fraud, I’m opposed to it. 🙂 And I’m opposed to some of the bolded portions of the Act, because I think they would make voter fraud easier, and also because the voting requirements in this country aren’t all that hard anyway. If a person can’t figure out how to register to vote or how to get to the right polling place, do you really want him picking a president? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/26 "2005-05-09T15:23:06Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > If a person can’t figure out how to register to vote or how to get to the right polling place, do you really want him picking a president? Yes, I do, because he has to live with the results same as I do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/27 "2005-05-09T15:30:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I have offered numerous proof of voting irregularities on these boards in the past. > > A search would demonstrate that I have contributed on this subject, with cites. > > You seem to feel that these matters can only be treated by threads that you begin yourself. It has been your MO lately. :dubious: You offered no proof in my earlier thread on the Count Every Vote Act (except for that flap about a few hundred provisional ballots in King County, WA, being counted without first being properly verified – and I’d still require more proof that there was “fraud” involved in that rather than bureaucratic sloppiness). Now, I suppose I could do a search on your username and the keywords “voting fraud” to see if you ever have offered substantive proof in any thread – but I should go to the trouble? That’s **not** how we expect things to work in GD. If you want to participate in this debate and you think you’ve got something relevant tot his thread, some real proof of widespread patterns of voting fraud, then posting it here is **your** responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/28 "2005-05-09T15:52:18Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > That would, again, have been the Democratic-Republicans. The Republican party wasn’t founded until 1854, and ran their first presidential candidate in 1856 (General Fremont). Remind me to not believe the [Rev. Charles A. Goodrich](http://www.colonialhall.com/gerry/gerry.php) or to use [colonialhall.com](http://www.colonialhall.com/index.php) as a source. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/29 "2005-05-09T16:12:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: You offered no proof in my earlier thread on the Count Every Vote Act (except for that flap about a few hundred provisional ballots in King County, WA, being counted without first being properly verified – and I’d still require more proof that there was “fraud” involved in that rather than bureaucratic sloppiness). Now, I suppose I could do a search on your username and the keywords “voting fraud” to see if you ever have offered substantive proof in any thread – but I should go to the trouble? That’s **not** how we expect things to work in GD. If you want to participate in this debate and you think you’ve got something relevant tot his thread, some real proof of widespread patterns of voting fraud, then posting it here is **your** responsibility. Look, I know there are only a certain number of things to talk about, and that duplication of threads is inevitable. That doesn’t mean you have to start so many, and it does not obligate me to participate even if I’ve chimed in in the past. Keep that in mind next time you decide to call me out. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/30 "2005-05-09T16:29:49Z")
BrainGlutton: > [@](#): > > Come on, Bricker, furt, Mr. Moto, Evil One, cmkeller, everybody who raised the specter of “voting fraud” in my earlier thread on the Count Every Vote Act: Where is your proof? Proof? How am I supposed to prove the consequences of a bill that hasn’t yet passd, let alone been implemented (and tested through an Election Day)? Simple logic tells me, though, that lowering the standards for proof at the ballot box is likely to lead to an increase in people who are not legally allowed to vote casting votes. I don’t see how it could possibly fail to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/31 "2005-05-09T16:42:55Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Remind me to not believe the [Rev. Charles A. Goodrich](http://www.colonialhall.com/gerry/gerry.php) or to use [colonialhall.com](http://www.colonialhall.com/index.php) as a source. Well, the Rev. Goodrich was writing in 1826, so it makes sense that he calls them “the republican party” because that’s what the Dem-Reps were usually called at that time, and also because the Federalists, while they weren’t monarchists, were less hostile to monarchy than the Dem-Reps. However, they don’t have any direct connection to the modern Republican party, which was founded in 1854 in Ripon, Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/32 "2005-05-09T16:45:52Z")
Err…1829, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/33 "2005-05-09T20:19:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Proof? How am I supposed to prove the consequences of a bill that hasn’t yet passd, let alone been implemented (and tested through an Election Day)? Simple logic tells me, though, that lowering the standards for proof at the ballot box is likely to lead to an increase in people who are not legally allowed to vote casting votes. I don’t see how it could possibly fail to do that. You’re not supposed to, of course. But the issue for debate here is whether voting fraud is a significant problem **now.** Simple logic tells me that if significant numbers of legally ineligible voters are not, at present, taking the trouble to trick their way into the voting booth, then nothing in the Count Every Vote Act will encourage more of them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/34 "2005-05-09T20:26:55Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Look, I know there are only a certain number of things to talk about, and that duplication of threads is inevitable. That doesn’t mean you have to start so many, and it does not obligate me to participate even if I’ve chimed in in the past. > > Keep that in mind next time you decide to call me out. Of course you’re not obliged to participate, but if you do choose to, can’t you bring something that contributes to the debate? And what do you mean, “there are only a certain number of things to talk about”? Just look at the incredible range of topics on the front page of GD alone on a given day! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/35 "2005-05-09T20:44:58Z")
BrainGlutton: > [@](#): > > Simple logic tells me that if significant numbers of legally ineligible voters are not, at present, taking the trouble to trick their way into the voting booth, then nothing in the Count Every Vote Act will encourage more of them to do so. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. My thoughts are that logically, anytime you (in any matter, voting-related or not) decrease the level of security, you invite an increase in intrusion. It hardly matters how low the level is before the decrease. The number of people who will attempt to steal something from a house when the door is locked is significantly smaller than the number who will make the attempt if the door is wide open. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/36 "2005-05-09T20:51:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And what do you mean, “there are only a certain number of things to talk about”? Just look at the incredible range of topics on the front page of GD alone on a given day! To be fair, most of them tend to be, “Is there a god or not?”, “Does evolution happen or not?”, “Look at this plan by Bush. Is it good?”, and “Should we be in Iraq or not?” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/37 "2005-05-09T20:58:17Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. My thoughts are that logically, anytime you (in any matter, voting-related or not) decrease the level of security, you invite an increase in intrusion. It hardly matters how low the level is before the decrease. > > The number of people who will attempt to steal something from a house when the door is locked is significantly smaller than the number who will make the attempt if the door is wide open. The difference is in level of motivation. People who care passionately about the outcome of any election are usually in the minority – especiallly in the U.S., where voter turnout is shockingly low by the standards of other democracies. Most people who vote do so, I think, out of a basic sense of civic duty – which is incompatible with committing fraud. And remember, you get no **immediate** reward from voting; whereas you just might be punished if you try to vote fraudulently and get caught at it. The benefits don’t match the risks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/38 "2005-05-09T21:13:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Most people who vote do so, I think, out of a basic sense of civic duty – which is incompatible with committing fraud. And remember, you get no **immediate** reward from voting; whereas you just might be punished if you try to vote fraudulently and get caught at it. The benefits don’t match the risks. It depends. There are people who care really passionately about the results of elections, and those are the political parties. And historically, they have committed voter fraud, from Chicago’s tendency to let the dead vote, to shipping Mexicans across the border to vote in Texas. They’ve done a lot to get supporters to the polls and keep opponents from going. I’ve got no reason to assume that stuff like that isn’t done now (and in fact, in both 2000 and 2004, there were rumors about underhanded attempts to suppress turnout in black areas in Baltimore). And, ultimately, this is a partisan issue, so you’re going to get partisan responses. Remember, non-voters aren’t spread out evenly among the population. Poor people and minorities are more likely not to vote, (and also more likely to be ineligible to vote) and they’re also more likely to vote for Democrats So, anything that gets more poor people and minorities out voting is going to be supported by the Democrats and opposed by the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/39 "2005-05-09T22:14:14Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It depends. There are people who care really passionately about the results of elections, and those are the political parties. And historically, they have committed voter fraud, from Chicago’s tendency to let the dead vote, to shipping Mexicans across the border to vote in Texas. Cite? As to both? > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > They’ve done a lot to get supporters to the polls and keep opponents from going. I’ve got no reason to assume that stuff like that isn’t done now (and in fact, in both 2000 and 2004, there were rumors about underhanded attempts to suppress turnout in black areas in Baltimore). True, but voter suppression, while it is something the Count Every Vote Act addresses, is not “voter fraud” of the kind with which this thread is concerned. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > And, ultimately, this is a partisan issue, so you’re going to get partisan responses. Remember, non-voters aren’t spread out evenly among the population. Poor people and minorities are more likely not to vote, (and also more likely to be ineligible to vote) and they’re also more likely to vote for Democrats So, anything that gets more poor people and minorities out voting is going to be supported by the Democrats and opposed by the Republicans. But, even more than a partisan issue, it is a civic issue. High voter turnout is generally considered to be a valuable goal for a democracy in and of itself, regardless of the political results. I note that even Republicans cannot openly argue on principle **against** high voter turnout, or against getting more poor people and minorities out voting; they have to couch their arguments in terms of “voting fraud.” That’s because, in discussing an issue like this, the basic assumptions of shared civic values still predominate. For now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825/40 "2005-05-10T02:48:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? As to both? Regarding Texas, read either Dallek or Caro’s biographies of LBJ for an account of the 1948 Texas Senate primary between him and Coke Stephenson. They both have accounts of the rather creative tactics both sides used to get the nomination, as well as the legal maneuverings afterwards. Or just look up George Parr. As for Cook County, do you really need cites about the actions of the Daley machine from the 1950s-70s? Check out either Royko’s “Boss” or, more recently, Cohen’s “American Pharoah”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-the-u-s/302825.md?page=3)