# How big a quotation can I post? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 28, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090 "2006-11-28T16:53:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/1 "2006-11-28T16:53:35Z")
without violating copywrite laws and all that? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/2 "2006-11-28T16:59:13Z")
You could post the complete works of William Shakespeare without violating copyright laws, because it is out of copyright. (But you might get into trouble for other reasons if you do that). ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/3 "2006-11-28T17:09:50Z")
The guidelines for Fair Use get a little complicated, but around here you’re generally safe with posting no more than a paragraph or two–really as little of the text as you can while still providing the gist of the point you are trying to make. It is appropriate (and usually required) to then provide a link back to the source material so anyone who wishes to read more can do so. Print materials should be handled the same way, along with proper attribution. This should not be taken as authoritative; the rules may have changed unbeknownst to me. But, this is my understanding of the approved standard for quoting copyrighted material. Pet peeve: it’s copy **right** , not copy **write**. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/4 "2006-11-28T17:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] The guidelines for Fair Use get a little complicated, but around here you’re generally safe with posting no more than a paragraph or two–really as little of the text as you can while still providing the gist of the point you are trying to make. It is appropriate (and usually required) to then provide a link back to the source material so anyone who wishes to read more can do so. Print materials should be handled the same way, along with proper attribution. This should not be taken as authoritative; the rules may have changed unbeknownst to me. But, this is my understanding of the approved standard for quoting copyrighted material. Pet peeve: it’s copy **right** , not copy **write**. [/QUOTE] Thanks…I’ve given up on ever getting that copywrite vs. copyright thing write. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/5 "2006-11-28T18:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Thanks…I’ve given up on ever getting that copywrite vs. copyright thing write. [/QUOTE] Hint: it’s the **right** to **copy** , and may not involve writing at all: pictures, films and music can be copyright. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/6 "2006-11-28T18:02:20Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Thanks…I’ve given up on ever getting that copywrite vs. copyright thing write. [/QUOTE] How are you with play **wright**? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/7 "2006-11-29T05:16:37Z")
This question (and many others) has been answered in sticky threads in this forum. e.g. [What’s the policy on copyrights?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7696968&postcount=3) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/8 "2006-11-29T14:49:40Z")
Just to add something, from past discussions where I unwittingly gave false guidance: You are **not** safe presenting a quotation of no more than 200 words or 10% of the text, whichever is less, as a court may find that that indeed exceeded fair use. However, it **is** a commonly presented guideline that is often considered valid for longer works (excerpt from book, _long_ essay, etc.) and a court will take that you at least _tried_ to honor your understanding of Fair Use law into account if you apply it. Fair use quotations **must** have a valid educational, moral, or critical purpose for their use, and may never accrue the quoter financial gain (except in the case of a paid critical review, a clergyman or educator using a quotation in connection with teaching, etc., where the financial renumeration is incidental to the use of the quotation). ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/9 "2006-11-29T23:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] except in the case of a … a clergyman … [/QUOTE] And sexism once again rears its ugly head. Why couldn’t a woman of the cloth be equally capable of fair use quotations with a valid educational, moral, or critical purpose? Curse you, legislators! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/10 "2006-11-30T05:29:37Z")
_Clergyperson_ just doesn’t have the same ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/11 "2006-11-30T13:35:58Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] _Clergyperson_ just doesn’t have the same ring to it. [/QUOTE] Perhaps a non-gender specific newly coined PC term like ‘Clergian’ or maybe even the old word Cleric would work? We cannot use Clerk as that meaning now brings up the concept of an office drone or storekeeper. [[QUOTE=Answers.com](http://QUOTE=Answers.com)] **Cleric** : A person ordained for service in a Christian church: churchman, churchwoman, clergyman, clergywoman, clerical, clerk, divine, ecclesiastic, minister, parson, preacher. Informal reverend. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/12 "2006-11-30T13:51:02Z")
**Polycarp** , my understanding (and I am not a lawyer) is that the rule was 5% of a long text. Note that even then, I don’t think you could get away with quoting 10 full pages of a 200-page book… that seems excessive, doesn’t it? Basically, the link that **Arnold** provided is the SDMB guideline. We don’t want a situation where we think we can win a legal case; we’re trying to **avoid** law suits and court cases altogether… so we want to be cleaner than clean here. Also, let me just add, from a practical point of view, it’s usually silly to quote at great length. Yeah, I can quote the entire text of the Declaration of Independence, but why would I bore readers so? If I want to make some point, I’d just quote the specific lines that back me up. And, by the way, just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s out of copyright. Again, I ain’t a lawyer, but my understanding is that the “entire works of William Shakespeare” as noted above is a case in point: there are at least three different “original” versions of Hamlet (early 1600s), and there are a variety of scholars who have put forth their own edited versions which are copyrighted. Lengthy quotes from the Folio are permitted; lengthy quotes from the Arden edition are not. Similarly with a translation of something not in English: the original French version of _The Three Musketeers_ could be quoted ad infinitam, but the new English translation by Richard Pevear is subject to US copyright. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/13 "2006-11-30T14:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] **Polycarp** , my understanding (and I am not a lawyer) is that the rule was 5% of a long text. Note that even there, in a 200-page book, I don’t think you could get away with quoting 10 full pages… that seems excessive, doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] Right. It’s a myth that one can copy some predetermined amount of text, music, drawing, or what have you. The test is mushy, and a big part of it has always been the quality of the portion copied. If you copy the “heart of the work” it can weigh against a finding of fair use in many cases. [Measuring Fair Use: The Four Factors - Copyright Overview by Rich Stim - Stanford Copyright and Fair Use Center](http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html); [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/9th/9555261.html](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/9th/9555261.html); [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl)? And see, _Harper & Row v. Nation Enterprises_: > [@](#): > > In absolute terms, the words actually quoted were an insubstantial portion of “A Time to Heal.” The District Court, however, found that “[T]he Nation took what was essentially the heart of the book.” 557 F. Supp., at 1072. We believe the Court of Appeals erred in overruling the District Judge’s evaluation of the qualitative nature of the taking. See, e. g., Roy Export Co. Establishment v. Columbia Broadcasting System, Inc., 503 F. Supp., at 1145 (taking of 55 seconds out of 1 hour and 29-minute film deemed qualitatively substantial). A Time editor described the chapters on the pardon as “the most interesting and moving parts of the entire manuscript.” Reply Brief for Petitioners 16, n. 8. The portions actually quoted were selected by Mr. Navasky as among the most powerful passages in those chapters. He testified that he used verbatim excerpts because simply reciting the information could not adequately convey the “absolute certainty with which [Ford] expressed himself,” App. 303; or show that “this comes from President Ford,” id., at 305; or carry the “definitive quality” of the original, id., at 306. In short, he quoted these passages precisely because they qualitatively embodied Ford’s distinctive expression. > > As the statutory language indicates, a taking may not be excused merely because it is insubstantial with respect to the infringing work. As Judge Learned Hand cogently remarked, “no plagiarist can excuse the wrong by showing how much of his work he did not pirate.” Sheldon v. Metro-Goldwyn Pictures Corp., 81 F.2d 49, 56 (CA2), cert. denied, 298 U.S. 669 (1936). [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=471&page=564#564](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=471&page=564#564) ---
**Author:** ![tygerbryght](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9a28c/32.png) [@tygerbryght](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tygerbryght)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/14 "2006-12-01T19:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] And sexism once again rears its ugly head. Why couldn’t a woman of the cloth be equally capable of fair use quotations with a valid educational, moral, or critical purpose? Curse you, legislators! :mad: [/QUOTE] Some years ago, I decided that I would only use “Chair” to refer to the person in charge of a meeting; “chairman” being regarded as sexist by many. I use the same rule WRT ministers (a good, neutral term for Protestant clergy, that I think could be expanded, as the religious leaders of any faith have _ministering_ to believers of their faith as their objects, right?); I call 'em Clergy, period. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/15 "2006-12-02T22:22:24Z")
There is a very specific exclusion on mathematical proofs, detailed by **Gfactor** in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346526). ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-a-quotation-can-i-post/382090/16 "2006-12-02T22:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] There is a very specific exclusion on mathematical proofs, detailed by **Gfactor** in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346526). [/QUOTE] This article talks about the legal doctrines involved: Pamela Samuelson, Questioning Copyrights in Standards, forthcoming in BC Law Rev: [http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/~pam/papers/BC%20questioning%20standards.pdf](http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/~pam/papers/BC%20questioning%20standards.pdf) (pdf at p. 13).