# How Big Is Black Market for Copper? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943 "2008-08-14T03:52:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/1 "2008-08-14T03:52:26Z")
On a semi-regular basis, I hear stories of people (often homeless men) vandalizing houses or breaking into construction sites to to steal copper piping and cable. I have to admit, I know practically nothing about the market for copper. Is copper really all that valuable? Who are the black market buyers for the hot copper? When some homeless guy shows up at a recycling center with a shopping cart full of copper, doesn’t that set off any alarm bells in proprietors’ heads? ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/2 "2008-08-14T03:56:24Z")
\*\* Is copper really all that valuable ?\*\* Copper price has risen 4 fold in past 5 years . That makes it perfect target for scrap thieves . ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/3 "2008-08-14T04:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=indian] \*\* Is copper really all that valuable ?\*\* Copper price has risen 4 fold in past 5 years . That makes it perfect target for scrap thieves . [/QUOTE] _And_ it’s nothing new (despite what some news outlets will have you believe). My grandfather was in the business of buying and reselling transformers for as long as I can remember. He can tell you stories about having the copper ripped out of them in the early 80’s. Oh, and I beleive the places that recycle them are supposed to keep track of who is turning it in and possible even report it to someone, but from what I’ve seen in the news, they tend not to do that. I think they’d rather not know. ETA aluminum is doing really well also. I just cut a door sized hole in my siding and my scrapper got $4.00 for the metal. It makes sense why some theives have started tearing siding right off the sides of houses. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/4 "2008-08-14T04:06:56Z")
Copper is around $3.50 a pound right now. When you sell copper in California, they take down identifying information, and IIRC they hold on to the stuff they buy at the scrapyard for a certain time period. I’m not sure if there’s a black market, but unless the pieces in question are readily identifiable (which they generally won’t be when it’s scrap), there’s really no reason for one. The homeless guy would probably stash his take somewhere good, and just sell a shopping bag full at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/5 "2008-08-14T04:09:26Z")
It’s very big in Thailand. There’s a very real problem here with copper being stripped from transformers and stuff and made away with. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/6 "2008-08-14T04:24:12Z")
[This disheartening story](http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_10127336) was on the news the other night. I think they said the culprits could get a couple grand out of the deal if they melted it down. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/7 "2008-08-14T04:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=Washoe] [This disheartening story](http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_10127336) was on the news the other night. I think they said the culprits could get a couple grand out of the deal if they melted it down. [/QUOTE] No way. The article said it weighed 100 lbs, so that’s less than $400. A pretty pathetic return on an item that obviously has a lot of sentimental and historic value. ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/8 "2008-08-14T05:45:15Z")
[QUOTE=Washoe] [This disheartening story](http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_10127336) was on the news the other night. I think they said the culprits could get a couple grand out of the deal if they melted it down. [/QUOTE] Perhaps a little more disheartening was when local thieves stole the copper refrigeration lines from the Indianapolis-area Gleaner’s Food Bank several times in a few months. May not have been a visually-striking local icon, but the destruction of all of the bank’s food stores-- nearly $500,000 worth in each incidence-- destined for the poor and homeless seemed especially cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/9 "2008-08-14T07:57:21Z")
Another [timely story](http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=6326438) about a death from scrap metal thefts. Here in Chicago there was a rash of grill covers being stolen from balconies and patios because they’d fetch $5-10 a piece at the scrap yards. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/10 "2008-08-14T11:17:49Z")
Like has been said it’s not new to have it stolen. It just gets more attractive to people in need of money as the payout rises. In the past there were problems with all the usable parts of a building disappearing over night, and being resold. It still happens. This is why I think scrap yards should be required to video people they do business with. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Shot\_Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_Clock)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/11 "2008-08-14T11:38:20Z")
Assholes around here cannibalized our local [doughboy statue](http://www.independentmail.com/news/2008/may/24/decision-still-hold-now-regarding-future-doughboy-/) for the copper—only to find the statue didn’t contain any copper. These guys better hope the cops find them before the vets and the Local Unorganized Militia do. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/12 "2008-08-14T11:39:56Z")
A major source of copper for thieves over here in Britain seems to be the railways. We’re always hearing about the service being disrupted as a result of cabling being nicked - it always used to be in northern England to start off but has spread to all parts. [Here’s](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7459635.stm) a typical story from BBC news. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/13 "2008-08-14T11:40:10Z")
Have a look how bad it has got in Australia. [Here](http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/14/asia/AS-Australia-Copper-Theft.php) is an amazing report of things that have been stolen. _Victoria state police in March reported that they had cracked one of that state’s largest copper theft rackets when they seized a shipping container loaded with more than 30 metric tons (33 U.S. tons) of allegedly stolen copper which they estimated was worth_\* 2.7 million Australia dollars\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/14 "2008-08-14T11:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Washoe] [This disheartening story](http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_10127336) was on the news the other night. I think they said the culprits could get a couple grand out of the deal if they melted it down. [/QUOTE] ``` Scrappers typically don't melt down their submissions, though they will use fire or heat to separate wire from insulation. Aluminium and its alloys melting around 1,000 F require a very dedicated fire of wood/coal and have a penalty in dross loss. Copper and its alloys require a furnace, beyond the reach of thieves. Besides, that's work. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/15 "2008-08-14T13:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Student Driver] May not have been a visually-striking local icon, but the destruction of all of the bank’s food stores-- nearly $500,000 worth in each incidence-- destined for the poor and homeless seemed especially cruel. [/QUOTE] There should be a special place in Hell (involving a daily offering of pineapple)… :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/16 "2008-08-14T13:55:01Z")
We’ve had a problem at our trainyard (I belong to a RR museum/excursion train) with thieves ripping the copper wiring out of our locomotives, despite heightened security. Our board has taken the step of keeping the power on 24/7, so anyone trying to take the wires without being _extremely_ careful is in for a nasty shock. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/17 "2008-08-15T08:01:56Z")
It’s not just copper. Thieves have even stolen bronze commemorative plaques from our local cemetery. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/18 "2008-08-15T10:25:21Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] No way. The article said it weighed 100 lbs, so that’s less than $400. A pretty pathetic return on an item that obviously has a lot of sentimental and historic value. [/QUOTE] The people doing the stealing don’t care about sentimental or historical value - to them, it’s just easy money. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/19 "2008-08-15T13:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] No way. The article said it weighed 100 lbs, so that’s less than $400. A pretty pathetic return on an item that obviously has a lot of sentimental and historic value. [/QUOTE] That’s nothing. Check [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/theft-of-bronze-statues-worth-16345000-linked-to-artworks-for-scrap-gang-480449.html) out. Worst item - an $11million statue stolen and almost certainly melted down for less than $10K worth of metal. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-is-black-market-for-copper/459943/20 "2008-08-15T15:46:56Z")
We’ve had an explosion in Minneapolis, when someone broke into an empty house, started ripping out copper piping, and discovered the hard way that a) that was a gas pipe, and b) gas service to the house hadn’t been shut off.