# How Big Must a Flop Be to Ruin a Career? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404 "2012-06-07T17:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/21 "2012-06-07T19:19:13Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Ishtar didn’t ruin Dustin Hoffman or Warren Beatty’s careers - but how will fledgling Taylor Kitsch survive John Carter and Battleship? Well Kitsch probably was hurt by John Carter not being a runaway success, since he was the main lead and was all over the promotional material for the movie. It would have helped his career if Battleship was a hit, but I’m not sure if it flopping really hurts him. It seems to be more of an ensemble. Most of the news I heard leading up the movie was about Liam Neeson signing onto this ridiculous sounding movie, or about Rihanna’s first acting job, or about Alexander Skarsgard being in a uniform. And I haven’t seen the movie, but I don’t remember seeing Kitsch in any of the commercials, trailers, or posters. It was all just alien spaceship things and battleships. When I first saw the poster at the theater, I at first thought it was for another Transformers sequel. Second, while both have been referred to as flops, I think Battleship actually actually has made some profit when you consider worldwide grosses. Maybe not as much as the producers would like, and maybe not enough to justify a sequel, but just because something flopped in the US doesn’t mean it’s a total flop. Also, it depends on what you mean by surviving. It’s possible that now he’ll never be a big star. He probably won’t be competing with Chris Hemsworth and Michael Fassbender and others of that league for the big roles in the blockbusters. But he might still be able to get the supporting roles, or have main roles in smaller movies. Kitsch has another movie coming out this summer called Savages, which I don’t know much about but I think is some kind of indie crime movie. He could keep doing things like that and making money. It might not be the career that he dreamed of, but he could still have a career that would make many actors jealous. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/22 "2012-06-07T19:53:25Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > That depends on any number of variables though. For instance, Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty did “Ishtar” several decades after each had established themselves as two of the greatest, most bankable stars of their generations. Both of them had very distinguished careers behind them, and were two of the most lauded, respected actors of their generations. Taylor Kitsch on the other hand…is just one more pretty faced actor. Nice looking, backed by a good P.R. machine, but no genuine charisma or outstanding talent. Warren Beatty was a lauded and respected actor? I know he had box office appeal, but he really can’t act for shit. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/23 "2012-06-07T21:11:43Z")
> [@Sister\_Vigilante](#): > > Funny, “box office poison” was what they called Katharine Hepburn. Yeah, it’s a handy phrase. Also, Cera : Hepburn is not a 1:1 comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/24 "2012-06-07T21:27:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Based on Nicolas Cage’s career, there doesn’t appear to be any fixed upper limit. I like him as an actor, but he has been in a lot of stinkers. I don’t think anyone has been in as many stinkers as Ben Stiller. But they keep letting him make terrible movies. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/25 "2012-06-07T21:28:30Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Warren Beatty was a lauded and respected actor? I know he had box office appeal, but he really can’t act for shit. He has a pretty face and he has a lot of personal charm and charisma. In Hollywood, sometimes that can be enough. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/26 "2012-06-07T22:05:41Z")
> [@Lazlo Hapsburg](#): > > I don’t think anyone has been in as many stinkers as Ben Stiller. > > But they keep letting him make terrible movies. > > Why? Because his crappy films tend to be of the inexpensive variety that still make money. That and he’s his own producer. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/27 "2012-06-07T22:58:09Z")
> [@Lazlo Hapsburg](#): > > He [Beatty] has a pretty face and he has a lot of personal charm and charisma. > > In Hollywood, sometimes that can be enough. Also, if I may give him a bit more credit, he’s very good playing a particular type of role: a charming but overconfident character who blindly and foolishly gets himself into situations where he’s in way over his head (and is often not aware of this until it’s too late). I’ve noticed this seems to be the case in many of his more notable films (e.g., **Lilith, Bonnie and Clyde, McCabe & Mrs. Miller** , and **The Parallax View** ). Anyway, since we’re talking about Beatty and toxic flops, he hasn’t been in any movies since **Town & County** did its face-plant in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/28 "2012-06-07T23:05:50Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Because his crappy films tend to be of the inexpensive variety that still make money. That and he’s his own producer. Tropic Thunder, Zoolander and Night At The Museum were all fun and funny. They was flops? o0 ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/29 "2012-06-07T23:54:31Z")
Jennifer Aniston and Katherine Heigl still get work. I guess it depends on what’s a flop cause all of their movies suck. Except “Office Space” and it would have been the same without Aniston. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/30 "2012-06-08T00:27:11Z")
I think you have to sink an entire studio to get summary exile, like Michael Cimino. Taylor Kitsch wasn’t the problem with **John Carter** ; Disney got cold feet less than a week after release. This kind of movie makes money automatically in most foreign markets, given a chance. Don’t be surprised to see Kitsch turn up as a major TV star, setting is sights just a little lower _a la_ Alec Baldwin or David Caruso. He’d be perfect for some kind of **L&O/CSI** -type show, wouldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/31 "2012-06-08T00:32:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Tropic Thunder, Zoolander and Night At The Museum were all fun and funny. They was flops? o0 Well, good and profitable are not the same things. To a studio, it’s worth risking an Along Came Polly if you could get a Meet the Parents. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/32 "2012-06-08T01:54:58Z")
As has been said in this thread- it all depends. But yes, if it’s your First Big Role, then one real stinker (even if your role wasn;t) can pretty much kill your career. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/33 "2012-06-08T02:25:49Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Taylor Kitsch wasn’t the problem with **John Carter** ; Disney got cold feet less than a week after release. This kind of movie makes money automatically in most foreign markets, given a chance. Which is why _Battleship_ opened overseas FIRST (and almost a month earlier), and, I think, made its costs back before it even opened in the US (but who can tell these things, knowing Hollywood accounting). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/34 "2012-06-08T02:51:03Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > Which is why _Battleship_ opened overseas FIRST (and almost a month earlier), and, I think, made its costs back before it even opened in the US (but who can tell these things, knowing Hollywood accounting). Good point. I’m not convinced **John Carter** will be in the red after cable and DVD sales are factored in next year, in the conventional sense. They just caught a whiff that promoting it would cost a lot more that putting it into the Disney Vault and letting the awesome moneymaking power of the **Avengers** do its thing. Too bad; I’d love to see Dejah Thoris among the theme park Disney Princesses… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/35 "2012-06-08T03:31:14Z")
Martin Brest, director of _Beverly Hills Cop_ and _Midnight Run_, has not been heard from since directing _Gigli_. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/36 "2012-06-08T04:23:56Z")
It will be interesting to see if Andrew Stanton ever directs another live action movie, after _John Carter_. I certainly don’t think he’ll be given such an enormous budget again, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/37 "2012-06-08T12:17:40Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Also, if I may give him a bit more credit, he’s very good playing a particular type of role: a charming but overconfident character who blindly and foolishly gets himself into situations where he’s in way over his head (and is often not aware of this until it’s too late). I’ve noticed this seems to be the case in many of his more notable films (e.g., **Lilith, Bonnie and Clyde, McCabe & Mrs. Miller** , and **The Parallax View** ). Not to mention the awards racked up post- **Ishtar** by **Bugsy** , which turns the dial up to 11 on Beatty’s classic schtick. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/38 "2012-06-08T18:31:15Z")
> [@Lazlo Hapsburg](#): > > I don’t think anyone has been in as many stinkers as Ben Stiller. > > But they keep letting him make terrible movies. > > Why? Note the correlation between “Starring Ben Stiller” and “Produced by Ben Stiller” in his recent resume. The studios are willing to let you do a lot more when it is your money. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Enlightening\_Meditation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@Enlightening\_Meditation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enlightening_Meditation)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/39 "2012-06-11T23:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=The Other Jeffrey Lebowski] Martin Brest, director of Beverly Hills Cop and Midnight Run, has not been heard from since directing Gigli. [/QUOTE] Ah, you beat me to it. That was also a rough period for Affleck. He was nominated for Golden Rasberry for Worst Actor (‘won’ two of those) in five consecutive films: _Daredevil_, _Gigli_, _Paycheck_, _Surviving Christmas_, and _Jersey Girl_. There was seeming desperation after _Gigli_. He had success playing douchebag characters in _Dazed and Confused_ and _Chasing Amy_ but that typecast role doesn’t work every time. As for the opening post topic, the size of the flop matters most for the director but it’s more subjective for actors depending on character context and how well established his/her career is. _Heaven’s Gate_ was one of the worst flops ever, and it didn’t hurt Jeff Bridges (speaking of Lebowski) or Christopher Walken in the grand scheme if at all. Cimino’s reputation as director was rather crippled though. There are exceptions. _Dune_ (1984) was a horrible flop financially and critically, but director David Lynch was able to bounce back with more modestly budgeted films. Note: don’t provide a $45 million budget to an obscure avant-garde director. Also, director Kevin Smith’d career recovered from the total financial black hole of _Mallrats_ which was only his 2nd feature film. Godfather Part III wasn’t really a flop, but Sofia Coppola’s performance tanked her further potential for acting. She’s had success as a director since then, though. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404/40 "2012-06-12T00:15:16Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > There are exceptions. _Dune_ (1984) was a horrible flop financially and critically, but director David Lynch was able to bounce back with more modestly budgeted films. Poor ol’ Sting’s aspirations to becoming a Master Thespian never recovered though… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-big-must-a-flop-be-to-ruin-a-career/624404.md?page=3)