# How 'bout we condemn the BOTH Arabs and Israelis! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 2, 2002, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307 "2002-04-02T00:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/101 "2002-04-05T08:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > > > [@](#): > > > > The Israelis have snipers shoot at disabled grandmothers as they exit local hospitals. > > I missed that one. Do you have a cite? "The most recent victim of the violence here was among the dead buried Tuesday. Widad Sufran, a hard-of-hearing grandmother in her 50s, had gone to the hospital in the morning to have a cast removed from her leg. That done, she began to hobble home on her cane. “An Israeli sniper from a nearby building shot her down about 50 yards from the hospital’s entrance, according to doctors who witnessed the shooting. The ambulance crew that tried to reach her also came under fire, the witnesses said.” –_Los Angeles Times,_ “A Brief Pause to Take Stock of the Living and the Dead,” April 3, 2002 (I’d link to the article, but the _Times_ will move it to their pay-per-view archives within a week…) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/102 "2002-04-05T13:01:54Z")
A plague o’ both your houses! —_Romeo and Juliet_ III.i.111 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/103 "2002-04-05T14:18:14Z")
Thank you for the cite. Further support to my contention that there are many bloody hands in this business. And another plug for Mr Bush’s speech. Powell could be going sooner, but most anything that pisses off Dicks Luger and Armey is a GOOD thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/104 "2002-04-05T15:13:25Z")
\*\*Hey, all you “I don’t understand either side.” wussies! \*\* Shut the fuck up. They’ll never stop killing each other until they are forced to stop. Hey Israelis: **Take the blinders off.** Those Palestinians won’t stop bombing you. Ever. Desparation will always breed suicidal terrorist maniacs. But there is a way out. Hey Palestinians: Just 'cause they’re the underdogs doesn’t mean you are right. **You are Israel’s bitch.** Deal. But you won’t, will you? Nooo! Well, we, the US, can help. Hey everybody: We’re spending a grunch of money keeping both sides propped up. It’s time to stop wasting the hard-earned American Taxpayer’s dollars and turn a cost center into a profit center. How, you ask? Folks, there is only one solution to this intractible situation. Indeed, it’s a cherished American tradition too long neglected in recent years. **Annexation.** That’s right. March US soldiers armpit to armit from Lebanon to the Gulf of Arabia and confiscate anything more dangerous than a pocketknife from both sides. Think about it, folks! It’s been far too long since we’ve had a new State, and I think we have a great opportunity to improve the situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories. Soon after annexation, we’ll see Wal Marts and Tower Records and Verizon Wireless and McDonalds popping up everywhere, and we can start taxing the hell outa the wanna-be bullies on both sides. Who is going to want to bomb a coffeeshop or take all the time and effort to build a new settlement when there is an episode of “Sex in the City” on or if you have DSL? And think of the tourism revenue! It’ll be just like Hawaii. There could be a Disney Middle East! Instead of being a big a treasure sink and bloodbath, it’s time to turn it around, leverage their assets, and add badly-needed dollars to Federal coffers. And if anybody starts bleating “That’s a very US-centric view”, all I’ve got to say is: shut your cakeholes, you bedwetters! You might be next. In conclusion, **sort it out amongst yourself, folks** , or we’re coming in with Britney Spears, Starbucks, and Professional Wrestling. And we’re not afraid to use them! ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/105 "2002-04-05T16:07:14Z")
**Dev** would you marry me? I mean if I wasn’t already? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/106 "2002-04-05T16:07:28Z")
(I actually like that idea, Dev! Half of 'em speak English already. Hell, half of them seem to have LIVED here already. Can we annex the South of France after that?) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/107 "2002-04-05T16:19:00Z")
The more I think about it the better I like it. This could solve the Canadian Problem, too. They can keep Quebec if they want, but if we hear anything upity outa THEM (and can find someone who can translate it for us), then in roll the tanks. Sorry, rest of the world. You’re wrong. We’re right. We’re better armed and NOBODY ELSE has demonstrated the balls to nuke somebody once, much less twice. We win. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/108 "2002-04-05T16:26:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Witch \* > **Dev would you marry me?** Of course. \*\* > [@](#): > > I mean if I wasn’t already? 😃 \*\* Oh, wait, me too. There might be…complications. ---
**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/109 "2002-04-05T16:43:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\* Can we annex the South of France after that? \*\* No. At one point was considered, and implementation began (see Eurodisney) before we remembered that it is the French people’s just and unique burden to have to live with themselves until the heat death of the universe. Plus, American military doctrine frowns on the “Nous nous rendons!” strategy. While it has been successfully employed by the French since Waterloo, it is just not our style. ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/110 "2002-04-05T17:04:33Z")
Can we just have a cheap, tawdry affair then ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/111 "2002-04-05T17:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Witch \* > \*\*Can we just have a cheap, tawdry affair then ? > 😉 \*\* Sure, as long as it is torrid, too! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/112 "2002-04-08T21:54:42Z")
Un. Fucking. Believeable. Hey there, you Americans out there? May I remind you that a mere seven months ago our country was wracked by the largest and most costly acts of terrorism the world has ever seen? You were all offended to the very cores of your souls. We declared “war” on terrorism, remember? So… why in the name of Jehosephat would you expect the Israelis to deal with a “nation” that not only uses terrorism as a tool of national policy, but which also has a [written commitment](http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plophase.htm) to destroy the Israelis by dealing in bad faith? You want to know what kind of “nation” Palestine is? It is a group of people that, as best I can tell, has _never_ governed themselves, and is united behind one simple, unwavering purpose: the removal of Judaism from the Holy Land. The Palestinians supported their own oppressors, the Turks, in the First World War. They raided the baggage trains of their own liberators, the combined Arab and British forces. Therefore, nobody thought it particularly inappropriate that the [Balfour Declaration](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/balfour.htm) placed a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The Palestinian “national rights” were not stripped from them; _they never fucking had them to begin with_. They were subjects of the Ottomans, and they fought to remain so. And lost. Loss of territory is often part of the price of defeat. Yet Palestinian nationality was guaranteed by the Balfour Declaration as well. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they were far more intent upon opposing Jewish immigration than they were in actually forming a country of their own. Rather than consolodate their own national identity, the Palestinians responded to the Balfour Declaration with [revolts and massacres](http://www.edume.org/reports/5/17.htm), in 1920, 1929, and 1936. The Palestinian leader, Haj Amin al-Husseini (a close relative of Yassir Arafat) went on to [support the Nazis](http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html) in World War II. He met with Hitler, and encouraged him to bring his extermination campaign to the Middle East. He helped recruit a muslim [Waffen SS Division](http://www.flamemag.dircon.co.uk/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm). Again, they lost. So in 1948, when Israel _and_ Palestine were created, it should come as no suprise that the Palesinians [again tried](http://www.dingwall.bc.ca/history/main.php3?cat=places&listing=Palestine_1948) to destroy the Israelis. And lost. Again. Whereupon the Palestinians allied themselves with [the Communists](http://www.marxists.de/middleast/misc/pal1948.htm). And lost the Cold War. Along the line, they participated in the Six Day War, the War of Attrition, and the Yom Kippur War. The former and the latter were both attempts by the Palestinians and their allies outside the borders of the historical Palestine to launch suprise attacks aimed at pushing the Israelis into the sea. Guess what? _They fucking lost again! And again!_ The Palestinians [still claim](http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plochart.htm) all of Israel. They’re still sticking to the [Phased Plan](http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plophase.htm) for the destruction of Israel. They are _fucking terrorists_, from their leader and founder of the bloodiest terrorist organization of the 20th Century, Yassir Arafat, to the people in the streets who rely upon suicide bombing as [a source of family income](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/world/main505316.shtml). What is it that the Palestinians _deserve_, again? They don’t deserve jack shit. We Americans should be _absolutely disgusted and ashamed_ that we are forcing Israel to deal with the Palestinians, for we ourselves would have destroyed them entirely decades ago. We should hang our heads in the knowledge that while we scour the globe in search of one brand of terrorist, we offer to mediate with another. Condemn them both if you will, but keep in mind that one side of the conflict has already faced extermination. The other side plans to finish the fucking job. And many of you support the exterminators. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![dave316](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dave316](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dave316)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/113 "2002-04-09T01:57:35Z")
listen to DEV, how long has Israeli been at this, they invade - kill some people - leave - more suicide bombs - another invasion. Some countries are just not meant to do the war thing . America knows how to make enemies into pals . We nuked Japan and they like us, they really like us. We could invade Iraq, take the oil , sell it and use the profits to build Palestine to one hell of a state . ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/114 "2002-04-09T08:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > You were all offended to the very cores of your souls. We declared “war” on terrorism, remember? Hey, buddy, not all of us are gung-ho about the fighting in Afghanistan, mmkay? Just because George W. Bush likes to shoot from the hip doesn’t mean everyone in this country does. > [@](#): > > What is it that the Palestinians _deserve_, again? They don’t deserve jack shit. That’s it, dehumanize 'em some more – that’ll make it easier to commit atrocities against them. > [@](#): > > Condemn them both if you will, but keep in mind that one side of the conflict has already faced extermination. The other side plans to finish the fucking job. From where I’m sitting, it looks like the former exterminat-ees are now trying to become exterminat-ors of their own. I’m _really_ surprised Sharon hasn’t proposed a “final solution” to the “Palestinian problem” already… ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/115 "2002-04-09T10:59:17Z")
Look, I don’t need to dehumanize the Palestinians. Read what they’ve said, look at what they’ve _written down_ for public review, and tell me that the Palestinian plan for “peace” is humane. Look at what they are doing _right now_. Their plan is spelled out just as explicitly as was that of their kindred spirit in _Mein Kampf_. Of all the disenfranchised peoples of the world, the Palestinians are the very _least_ deserving–both by their past actions and their stated future intent–of their own country. There is no other people on earth more worthy of preclusion from nationhood for historical reasons _alone_. Every single generation of Palestinians since the turn of the last century has attempted to expel the Jews from today’s Israel, at the expense of their own national identity and sovereignty. They have consistently aligned themselves with the most evil and oppressive regimes in order to reach their singleminded goal. A Palestinian state will be used for one thing, and one thing only: a platform from which they will launch their latest attempt to remove the Jewish people from the Holy Land. Obviously, some of you have not actually read the text of the PLO Charter and the 1974 Phased Plan. Let them spell it out for you: > [@](#): > > 1. The Liberation Organization will struggle against any proposal for a Palestinian entity the price of which is recognition, peace, secure frontiers, renunciation of national rights and the deprival of our people of their right to return and their right to self-determination on the soil of their homeland. > > 2. Once it is estabished, the Palestinian national authority will strive to achieve a union of the confrontation countries, with the aim of completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory, and as a step along the road to comprehensive Arab unity. > > 3. The Liberation Organization will strive to strengthen its solidarity with the socialist countries, and with forces of liberation and progress throughout the world, with the aim of frustration all the schemes of Zionism, reaction and imperialism. > > 4. In light of this programme, the leadership of the revolution will determine the tactics which will serve and make possible the realization of these objectives. This is part of the 1974 Phased Plan. Lest you think the Plan is somehow irrelevant, check out what our boy Yassir said in the wake of the Oslo agreements: > [@](#): > > “[The Agreement] will be a basis for an independent Palestinian state in accordance with the Palestine National Council resolution issued in 1974… The PNC resolution issued in 1974 calls for the establishment of a national authority on any part of Palestinian soil from which Israel withdraws or which is liberated.” (Radio Monte Carlo, 1 September 1993) The Palestinians are crying their crocodile tears today because they and their allies have _explicitly, consistenly chosen_ to suffer rather than peacefully coexist with their military, diplomatic, economic, and moral superiors. _If_ the sane part of the world fails to intercede in this conflict in favor of the Israelis, the Palestinians will be allowed to perpetrate a premeditated crime of proportions not witnessed since the last time someone tried to exterminate the Jewish people. If you don’t see that, when it’s spelled out before your very eyes, _you are completely fucking blind_. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/116 "2002-04-09T11:10:56Z")
So what do you propose? Wiping out the Palistinians? Look, neither side are angels. Both countries are run by extremist scumbags. They both need their heads banged against each other. its as simple as this. If country X uses violence against country Y, country Y will retaliate with violence against country X. You can put Israel or Palestine into either side of the equation and it still holds true. And if you are FUCKING BLIND enough not to realise that you have to negotiate to achieve piece, come on over to Ireland and I can show you just what negotiation can do. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/117 "2002-04-09T11:25:56Z")
**Twist** , how do you negotiate with an entity that has their intent for your destruction _written down_ in their governing documents? What are you supposed to do when that entity cannot muster the two-thirds majority of delegates necessary to amend the passages which call for your destruction? What sane person thinks that you can negotiate a peaceful settlement an entity which uses terror and dishonest bargaining to further its stated goal of your own destruction? That is _exactly_ the case we have here. I defy any of you to deny it on either an intellectual or evidentary basis. In such a context, the emotive argument in favor of the Palestinians is completely belied by their known, observed intent. The Palestinians are inviting this suffering in order to use it as a tool in their ongoing attempt to destroy another nation and people. _That_ is the difference between the two sides. It is scrawled out in black, white, and red. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/118 "2002-04-09T11:36:50Z")
Much of what you attribute to the Palestinians you could attribute to the Irish in relation to Britain. Both sides have committed atrocities against the other. The international community should not be talking sides. Neither side will be happy with the other side policing disputed zones. The U.N. should be in there enforcing peace, for both the Israeli’s And the Palistinians. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/119 "2002-04-09T11:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > **What sane person thinks that you can negotiate a peaceful settlement an entity which uses terror and dishonest bargaining to further its stated goal of your own destruction?** Goddamnit **Sofa King** , you sound just like Margaret Thatcher’s government talking about the IRA. Thankfully, when the Tories and their “a crime is a crime is a crime” attitude got voted out, real progress happened in Northern Ireland, and there is now (a kind of) peace. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307/120 "2002-04-09T11:43:05Z")
There will be no peace so long as one side postulates its existence on the destruction of the other. That’s the difference between Ireland and the Middle East. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-we-condemn-the-both-arabs-and-israelis/101307.md?page=7)