# How 'bout you shove the flag up your ass, instead of writing me up? (long, mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395 "2003-05-29T23:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/41 "2003-05-30T10:25:43Z")
**NinjaChick** , the sad thing is, in that rant, you were more reasoned and more adult than some people twice your age. Sometimes the best defense against someone who’s ranting and raving at you is to stay calm, logical, and focused, but you already showed you know that. Besides, ain’t it fun when the person accusing you of immaturity is acting a lot more immature than you are? 😃 CJ ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/42 "2003-05-30T13:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*Even logically, this clown is wrong. If you “don’t know anything,” then why should you be making a pledge of your political allegiance? \*\* Yeah, man! What, until you’ve reached voting age, or whatever you have to do to qualify as “knowing anything” by his standards, you’re supposed to let other people make all your decisions for you? :wally ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/43 "2003-05-30T13:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Buck The Diver \* > \*\*“Rediculous”? > > Perhaps you mean: > > Main Entry: ri·dic·u·lous > Pronunciation: r&-'di-ky&-l&s > Function: adjective > Etymology: Latin ridiculosus (from ridiculum jest, from neuter of ridiculus) or ridiculus, literally, laughable, from ridEre to laugh > Date: 1550 > : arousing or deserving ridicule : ABSURD, PREPOSTEROUS > synonym see LAUGHABLE > > - ri·dic·u·lous·ly adverb > - ri·dic·u·lous·ness noun > > Rant on, my dear. \*\* Oh, fuck off. The rest of her rant was well-thought out and quite literate. One misspelled word does not make it any less admirable. **NinjaChick** , I’m on your side here. The teacher was completely out of line and you need to go directly to the administration; failing any sort of resolution with them, take it to the school board. I would speak to a lawyer just in case - just to have that backup. Ava ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/44 "2003-05-30T14:19:41Z")
Here’s a relevant Supreme Court decision [WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624) > [@](#): > > Neither our domestic tranquillity in peace nor our martial effort in war depend on compelling little children to participate in a ceremony which ends in nothing for them but a fear of spiritual condemnation. If, as we think, their fears are groundless, time and reason are the proper antidotes for their errors. The ceremonial, when enforced against conscientious objectors, more likely to defeat than to serve its high purpose, is a handy implement for disguised religious persecution. As such, it is inconsistent with our Constitution’s plan and purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/45 "2003-05-30T14:19:51Z")
**Ninja** The thing that really ticks me off about that guy is the memorial day quip. Yes people have died for my freedom. So, out of respect for their sacrifice, I should give up that freedom and be a mindless drone? When you are old enough to vote, if you sit at home on election day like about half of the other voters do, then you are being disrespectful to those who gave the ultimate sacrifice for this country. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/46 "2003-05-30T14:22:50Z")
I’m on the OP’s side, as well, but there’s one issue that I want to be addressed. I do not understand this contrarian way of thinking that believes showing contempt for our nation is superior to being patriotic. I do not admire people who trample on our heritage and the sacrifice of soldiers’s lives in the preservation of our freedoms; they died for our freedom of worship, our freedom to vote, our freedom to live our lives in peace. Standing for the pledge is not an endorsement of the Bush’s foreign policy, but a compact with the nation’s heritage and one’s fellow citizens. It’s a pladege to the nation, not to the president. While the OP’s freedom to show disrespect for our nation and its citizens is protected under the First Amendment, it’s nothing to be proud of. That said, the OP is 100 percent in the right. A student has the right to exercise her freedom of expression as long as she does not interfere with or disrupt school activities. The Supremes found in [Tinker v. Des Moines:](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=393&invol=503) > [@](#): > > As we have discussed, the record does not demonstrate any facts which might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities, and no disturbances or disorders on the school premises in fact occurred. These petitioners merely went about their ordained rounds in school. Their deviation consisted only in wearing on their sleeve a band of black cloth, not more than two inches wide. They wore it to exhibit their disapproval of the Vietnam hostilities and their advocacy of a truce, to make their views known, and, by their example, to influence others to adopt them. They neither interrupted school activities nor sought to intrude in the school affairs or the lives of others. They caused discussion outside of the classrooms, but no interference with work and no disorder. In the circumstances, our Constitution does not permit officials of the State to deny their form of expression. While later opinions in other cases have found the Court endorsing the restriction of the content of school newspapers (_Hazelwood vs. Kulmeier_, for example) , AFAIK _Tinker_’s landmark defense of student freedom of silent protest still stands. I would suggest that the OP print the linked case and take it to school. In this case, the student can teach the teachers about the Constitution and its meaning. Books I recommend: _The Words We Live By_, by Linda R. Monk. Aimed at young adults, it’s a line-by-line analysis of the Constitution with brief definitions of relevant terms inserted in the margins. _The Courage of Their Convictions_, by Peter Irons. It’s a collection of cases brought by citizens seeking the protection of their Constitutional rights. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/47 "2003-05-30T14:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I’m on the OP’s side, as well, but there’s one issue that I want to be addressed. I do not understand this contrarian way of thinking that believes showing contempt for our nation is superior to being patriotic. I do not admire people who trample on our heritage and the sacrifice of soldiers’s lives in the preservation of our freedoms; they died for our freedom of worship, our freedom to vote, our freedom to live our lives in peace. Standing for the pledge is not an endorsement of the Bush’s foreign policy, but a compact with the nation’s heritage and one’s fellow citizens. It’s a pladege to the nation, not to the president. While the OP’s freedom to show disrespect for our nation and its citizens is protected under the First Amendment, it’s nothing to be proud of. > > \*\* Huh? I think you are the first person to bring up GWB in the thread. Lets see if I remember it all I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Clearly the pledge is really not as **Ninjachick** claims, a pledge to a flag but to, as you say, to the nation. I personally think the flag part of that run-on sentence is there so that little kids know which way to face while they recite it. But I really don’t see how this is a “compact with the nation’s heritage and one’s fellow citizens”, as you put it. What is the compact? What does one promise when one says the pledge and what is promised in return? It’s a vague, trance-inducing, drone that, in my experience, is there to take kids from the state of talking to their friends and goofing around to the state of sitting there quietly and listening to the teacher. AND The op is NOT SHOWING disrespect for the flag, nor is she showing disrespect for veterans. She sits there quietly while others choose to say the pledge. She chooses not to say the pledge. She is not choosing to show disrespect for the flag or nation. And yes the fact that she has made a choice, a choice that is potentially unpopular with many people around her and yet she has _The Courage of her Convictions_ is something, for which, to be proud. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/48 "2003-05-30T15:06:08Z")
Zebra: Clearly you missed the bit of the pledge where it says “to the flag.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/49 "2003-05-30T15:11:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > Huh? > > I think you are the first person to bring up GWB in the thread. Well, the OP said, "I didn’t say I was oppressed, I said I don’t condone the current trend of our government. " From that, I extrapolated the she meant the Prez. If I am wrong, I apologize for my error. > [@](#): > > But I really don’t see how this is a “compact with the nation’s heritage and one’s fellow citizens”, as you put it. What is the compact? What does one promise when one says the pledge and what is promised in return? One promises one’s loyalty, you know, “pledge allegiance”? But, as you say, nothing is promised in return, so my choice of “compact” to describe the PoA may be in error. > [@](#): > > It’s a vague, trance-inducing, drone that, in my experience, is there to take kids from the state of talking to their friends and goofing around to the state of sitting there quietly and listening to the teacher. Possibly. I always seem to be in the minority when I say that I meant every word of it when I said it. > [@](#): > > The op is NOT SHOWING disrespect for the flag, nor is she showing disrespect for veterans. She sits there quietly while others choose to say the pledge. She chooses not to say the pledge. She is not choosing to show disrespect for the flag or nation. While the OP said she did not meant to be respectful, ostentatiously sitting when others pledge is IMO disrespectful, but I could be wrong. > [@](#): > > And yes the fact that she has made a choice, a choice that is potentially unpopular with many people around her and yet she has _The Courage of her Convictions_ is something for which to be proud. Making unpopular choices can be something of which to be proud, but not always. Burning flags, burning crosses, marching with swastika banners through Jewish neighborhoods are all unpopular choices that have been defended in the past, but that doesn’t make those acts praiseworthy (not that I am in any wya comparing the OP to the KKK or Nazis–I’m just that being in the minority isn’t necessarily admirable in and of itself. Then again, neither is being in the majority.) ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/50 "2003-05-30T15:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **While the OP said she did not meant to be respectful, ostentatiously sitting when others pledge is IMO disrespectful, but I could be wrong.** ‘Ostentatiously sitting?’ Not bad, but you probably need to ratchet up the rhetoric another notch if you’re going to play in the Pit. Let’s see … how about ‘brazenly defying’ the pledge-saying majority? I can probably come up with something even better if I try hard. But I think I’ll stick with ‘quietly refraining’, myself, now that I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![if\_you\_don\_t\_know\_i\_won\_t\_tell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/fbc32d/32.png) [@if\_you\_don\_t\_know\_i\_won\_t\_tell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if_you_don_t_know_i_won_t_tell)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/51 "2003-05-30T15:30:06Z")
Not pledging allegiance to something is not disrespectful. However, I do agree with **Gobear**. She has every right not to stand or recite the pledge. The Pledge of Allegiance is not a salute to the president, it is a salute to the US and our history. I, personally, didn’t care for Clinton. The flag didn’t represent Clinton. Hence I had no problem with reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. **Gobear** excellently put. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/52 "2003-05-30T18:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Except for those states under the 9th Circuit, of course. > [@](#): > > I do not understand this contrarian way of thinking that believes showing contempt for our nation is superior to being patriotic. I do not admire people who trample on our heritage and the sacrifice of soldiers’s lives in the preservation of our freedoms; they died for our freedom of worship, our freedom to vote, our freedom to live our lives in peace. Standing for the pledge is not an endorsement of the Bush’s foreign policy, but a compact with the nation’s heritage and one’s fellow citizens. It’s a pladege to the nation, not to the president. While the OP’s freedom to show disrespect for our nation and its citizens is protected under the First Amendment, it’s nothing to be proud of. Oh piss off. Like the [PoA](http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm) is some sacred writ. It was written for publication in a children’s magazine, for fuck’s sake, not hauled down off the mountain by Betsy Ross. And who the fuck are you to decide the measure of what makes one “patriotic” or not? How is someone taking a principled stance against being required or coerced into reciting an oath with which she disagrees less patriotic than someone who recites it without thinking because it’s expected? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/53 "2003-05-30T21:37:26Z")
Hey **gobear** , some people don’t say the pledge because their religion frowns on it? Are they showing contempt for the nation? Please. I think there are MUCH more important ways to show respect for your country than mindlessly parroting some stupid poem. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/54 "2003-05-30T22:11:47Z")
Personally, **gobear** , I would find it a high tribute indeed to a country that speaks so often of personal freedoms and liberties for one (and indeed all) of its own to have the freedom not to stand in line with so many other drones (I was required to say that pledge for many years and for most of those had no fucking clue what it meant) who recite it and have no idea what it means or what its history is. You have the freedom _not_ to be like everyone else. But then I’m one of those wacky folk who don’t actually believe it’s true. The “under God” is one thing, but liberty and justice for all? Puh-lease. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/55 "2003-05-30T22:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Hey **gobear** , some people don’t say the pledge because their religion frowns on it? Are they showing contempt for the nation? > > Please. I think there are MUCH more important ways to show respect for your country than mindlessly parroting some stupid poem. \*\* See, that’s what I’m on about. “Mindlessly parroting”. . . could you be more insulting? Are you saying that those of us who say the Pledge are all mindless parrots, repeating lines we don’t understand? Maybe for you, but don’t you dare count me in that crowd. While I support 100 percent the OP’s right to her stand, I do not agree with it. > [@](#): > > But then I’m one of those wacky folk who don’t actually believe it’s true. The “under God” is one thing, but liberty and justice for all? Puh-lease Yopu’re missing the point. “Liberty and justice for all” certainly doesn’t work out in real life, but they are the goals we aspire to. The dream of America, the promise of what it can be, the shining beacon on a hill that has drawn people here for centuries. . . THAT is what the Pledge is all about. Yes, I know I sound like Linus in “A Charlie Brown Christmas” but I cannot help it. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/56 "2003-05-30T23:49:32Z")
_sigh of relief_ Had a rather long chat with the assistant principal today. She listened to my side of the story (having already talked to English Teacher from Hell), and told me that I was fine. Points in my favor: it was the first time in 3 years of high school I’ve ever been sent down for disciplinary action, the teacher couldn’t say exactly what rule I had broken, and I went into the office today with a handful of printouts regarding the Barnette case and Tinker v. Des Moines. Points in the teacher’s favor: he was a teacher. I was actually congratulated by the assistant principal for standing up (or not, really, in this case) for what I believe in, and the teacher shall get A Talking To. Now I’m all riled up, though, and my cause for rile-ation has been taken away. What to do with this pent-up frustration? Other than realize that that question could be interpreted quite…wrongly. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/57 "2003-05-31T00:03:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*Are the other people actively looking for anyone who might be sitting? I’d think being respectful is either saying the thing or being silent. Sitting/standing … as long as you’re not passing notes or loudly chewing gum or talking on a cell phone (i.e. being quiet), I personally don’t see the difference. > > Ought to be _mighty_ interesting when I start teaching. I still dunno what I’m gonna do _myself_. \*\* Personally, I take roll if I have a class that period. Might as well since I’m not taking up class time. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/58 "2003-05-31T00:14:32Z")
> [@](#): > > What to do with this pent-up frustration? Organize a bake sale and donate the profits to the ACLU! ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/59 "2003-05-31T00:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NinjaChick \* > \*\*_sigh of relief_ > > Had a rather long chat with the assistant principal today. She listened to my side of the story (having already talked to English Teacher from Hell), and told me that I was fine. Points in my favor: it was the first time in 3 years of high school I’ve ever been sent down for disciplinary action, the teacher couldn’t say exactly what rule I had broken, and I went into the office today with a handful of printouts regarding the Barnette case and Tinker v. Des Moines. Points in the teacher’s favor: he was a teacher. I was actually congratulated by the assistant principal for standing up (or not, really, in this case) for what I believe in, and the teacher shall get A Talking To. > > Now I’m all riled up, though, and my cause for rile-ation has been taken away. What to do with this pent-up frustration? > > Other than realize that that question could be interpreted quite…wrongly. \*\* Walk away. You have won and reason has prevailed. Do not go looking for a fight when one does not exist. Show dignity, maturity and fortitude (I doubt the teacher will). Interestingly enough, the pledge has held true in your case: “liberty and justice for all”. Maybe just say that line next time to honor the asst. principal who apparently upholds the principles of our nation. “Mr. Lissa” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395/60 "2003-05-31T00:34:59Z")
Woohoo! All right **NinjaChick**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-bout-you-shove-the-flag-up-your-ass-instead-of-writing-me-up-long-mild/178395.md?page=4)