# How can 18 million\* people be wrong??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751 "2008-06-04T13:36:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/41 "2008-06-04T18:26:19Z")
Unless Clinton comes out hard for Obama, she can kiss her political legacy and any chance she may have had for further office good-bye. Graciousness in not getting the nomination now vs. pissing off the Party if McCain wins a close one is a very easy calculus. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/42 "2008-06-04T18:37:28Z")
Hey, Phlosphr: thanks. Your mum must be a great woman to have raised a kid like you! I’m really looking forward to watching the presidential campaign. As a Canadian, an outsider looking in, I am hopeful that Americans will elect a man who will represent your nation as it deserves to be represented. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think you should consider “world opinion” near the top of your list. But it might be worth tacking on the end: is he going to make us look good? Are other world leaders going to respect him, and listen to him? He’s educated, sophisticated, urbane, intelligent: after a little man, you have the chance to elect a big man. I don’t think he’s going to cure all your ills - who could? But if he can reduce the vicious partisan hatreds and make Americans think things are getting better, he’ll at least have made a good start on the future. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/43 "2008-06-04T19:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=vison] Hey, Phlosphr: thanks. Your mum must be a great woman to have raised a kid like you! I’m really looking forward to watching the presidential campaign. As a Canadian, an outsider looking in, I am hopeful that Americans will elect a man who will represent your nation as it deserves to be represented. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think you should consider “world opinion” near the top of your list. But it might be worth tacking on the end: is he going to make us look good? Are other world leaders going to respect him, and listen to him? He’s educated, sophisticated, urbane, intelligent: after a little man, you have the chance to elect a big man. I don’t think he’s going to cure all your ills - who could? But if he can reduce the vicious partisan hatreds and make Americans think things are getting better, he’ll at least have made a good start on the future. [/QUOTE] Thank you! And there is probably not one word I would change in your post. I do think world opinion matters, I started a thread way back when Obama was in his 11 state winning streak where a group of top journalists from several world nations got together and spoke on NPR about how they view Obama. All of them said if the United States misses out on the opportunity to elect Mr. Obama it will be a shame. I think people around the world see much clearer than we do here in the states. They do not have to think about the logistics of when a new president takes office what will happen, they seem to think about their own interpretation of what America is as a country, and what this new president will do to that opinion. And I like that - I wish I could experience it like that for this election. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/44 "2008-06-04T21:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] Like I said, I’m not really that excited about him anyway. In that position it doesn’t take a lot to push it to apathy. Not to mention that California is basically a lock for democrats right now anyway, so while I wouldn’t go to the point of voting McCain but I don’t know that I can really vote Obama. I probably will, but the attitudes expressed here and in numerous other threads make me wonder if I should. [/QUOTE] Again, I get that you’re not excited by him; that doesn’t puzzle me. What puzzles me is why the attitudes expressed here make you wonder if you should support Obama. What about those attitudes makes you wonder? What’s the connection between the attitudes of his supporters and whether you offer that support? Apologies if I’m just being dense; I’ve reread your post about three times, and I’m just not getting the connection. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/45 "2008-06-04T21:26:25Z")
It’s difficult to clearly express. Partially it’s guilt by association. A number of people I normally respect are going virtually rabid, that gives me pause. Every little thing that he does is considered simply amazing and wonderful, like he’s the second coming. Every little thing that Clinton does means she is satan incarnate and there MUST be some nefarious purpose. I don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior. Part of it comes from what I said above about being annoyed that I once again am basically in the position of voting against someone, rather then really being for someone. Part of it is sheer stubbornness. I fully admit that is not a great point, but people saying essentially that “Ah, your candidate lost. Well I’m sure you can see the light now that OUR candidate is the superior choice and yours should be sent to Siberia.” really, really turns me off. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/46 "2008-06-04T21:42:55Z")
To add to my first point, see the current Fork Hillary 5 thread where several people have not so subtly said she should be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/47 "2008-06-04T21:51:49Z")
Don’t worry. We’ll end up electing the aging white Republican man anyway. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/48 "2008-06-04T22:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] I love apostrophe’s 😃 Most people here know about my terrible grammar and spelling 🙂 [/QUOTE] Before we go any further, people, it’s “bloc” not “block.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/49 "2008-06-04T22:41:32Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] It’s difficult to clearly express. Partially it’s guilt by association. A number of people I normally respect are going virtually rabid, that gives me pause. [/quote] “Virtually rabid”? What is that supposed to mean? And why should it be a reflection of the candidate? How would you respond to Obama supporters, had Hillary won the nomination, and we said we applied guilt by association to her based on [her despicable supporters’ behavior](http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/04/clyburn-clinton-supporters-flood-office-with-hate-calls/)? > [@Antinor01](#): > > Every little thing that he does is considered simply amazing and wonderful, like he’s the second coming. I’m really getting sick of this lame and unsubstantiated argument. Posting about his accomplishments and taking pride in supporting him based on his skills and ability to inspire, is hardly the equivalent of deifying the man. It would be nice if you could come up with a legitimate argument with a factual basis. > [@Antinor01](#): > > Every little thing that Clinton does means she is satan incarnate and there MUST be some nefarious purpose. I don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior. Pure hyperbole. Both Clinton’s and Obama’s gaffs and blunders have been discussed, debated and railed upon. If you don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior then you surely cannot support Hillary Clinton, either. > [@Antino01](#): > > Part of it comes from what I said above about being annoyed that I once again am basically in the position of voting against someone, rather then really being for someone. So why don’t you start a discussion about why you should support Obama as opposed to voting against McCain, and contain that conversation to positions and issues the candidates themselves take instead of the perceived behavior of their supporters? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/50 "2008-06-04T22:55:10Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] “Virtually rabid”? What is that supposed to mean? And why should it be a reflection of the candidate? How would you respond to Obama supporters, had Hillary won the nomination, and we said we applied guilt by association to her based on [her despicable supporters’ behavior](http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/04/clyburn-clinton-supporters-flood-office-with-hate-calls/)? [/quote] See my point about “A number of people I normally respect”. There will always be outliers that do ridiculous things, but I am talking about the people right here on the board. I’m talking about people who are suggesting that she be shot and the like. Which has happened. > [@](#): > > I’m really getting sick of this lame and unsubstantiated argument. Posting about his accomplishments and taking pride in supporting him based on his skills and ability to inspire, is hardly the equivalent of deifying the man. It would be nice if you could come up with a legitimate argument with a factual basis. Yawn. I was asked a question about my feelings and opinions and I gave them. I was talking about how I see things. I didn’t realize that opinions required anything else. > [@](#): > > Pure hyperbole. Both Clinton’s and Obama’s gaffs and blunders have been discussed, debated and railed upon. If you don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior then you surely cannot support Hillary Clinton, either. And I find your response to be pure bullshit. Have you missed the posts suggesting that she be shot or that she would have Obama assassinated? Give me a break. > [@](#): > > So why don’t you start a discussion about why you should support Obama as opposed to voting against McCain, and contain that conversation to positions and issues the candidates themselves take instead of the perceived behavior of their supporters? I’ve been thinking about it. I would like to have a good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/51 "2008-06-04T23:27:18Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] A number of people I normally respect are going virtually rabid, that gives me pause. Every little thing that he does is considered simply amazing and wonderful, like he’s the second coming. Every little thing that Clinton does means she is satan incarnate and there MUST be some nefarious purpose. [/QUOTE] I support Obama, but I’ve seen _way_ more of this from Obama’s people than Clinton’s, and yes, it it pretty creepy to watch coming from people who’re normally somewhat sane. From a distance, it’s been a lot like watching a bunch of third graders pick on the heaviest girl in class, and I hope to Og that it’ll end soon before it turns even more people off. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/52 "2008-06-05T01:34:43Z")
I won’t defend the people suggesting she should be shot, and if they’re all that are creeping you out, ignore this post. But I always find it interesting when someone says that a person they normally respect isn’t thinking clearly or is rabid. In my experience, when a person you normally trust/respect starts getting really excited or acts in a manner you’re not used to…there’s probably a reason for it. They haven’t necessarily stopped being that person, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/53 "2008-06-05T02:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] It’s difficult to clearly express. [/quote] I appreciate your trying. > [@](#): > > Partially it’s guilt by association. A number of people I normally respect are going virtually rabid, that gives me pause. Every little thing that he does is considered simply amazing and wonderful, like he’s the second coming. Every little thing that Clinton does means she is satan incarnate and there MUST be some nefarious purpose. I don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior. Nor do I, and I’ve posted as much in a few different threads. That said, surely you realize that guilt by association is nonsense, right? > [@](#): > > Part of it comes from what I said above about being annoyed that I once again am basically in the position of voting against someone, rather then really being for someone. That’s the only part that makes sense to me. I’m happy this time to have someone I can vote for; having voted since 1992, this is the first time it’s ever happened for me (well, discounting a couple meaningless votes for Nader, that is). I certainly understand being annoyed at voting against someone. I don’t understand considering not voting because of being in that position, however. > [@](#): > > Part of it is sheer stubbornness. I fully admit that is not a great point, but people saying essentially that “Ah, your candidate lost. Well I’m sure you can see the light now that OUR candidate is the superior choice and yours should be sent to Siberia.” really, really turns me off. Sure, I understand being turned off by that. I’m glad you see that it’s not a great point, though. Votes have small but real consequences, and an uncast vote is equivalent to half a vote cast for the other candidate. I get that you’re annoyed by certain Obama supporters’ behaviors. Trust me: the behaviors of certain Clinton supporters (“McCain 08! McCain 08!”) piss me right the fuck off, too. I can’t cast my vote based on what some dumbshit who supports a certain candidate does, though. That’s bad voting practice. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/54 "2008-06-05T02:34:33Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I can’t cast my vote based on what some dumbshit who supports a certain candidate does, though. That’s bad voting practice. Daniel [/QUOTE] QFT. Supporters for any candidate (any cause, for that matter) are going to include some people that you’d rather not be associated with. Unless the candidate is one of those people, it’s unfair to hold them responsible for the actions of others. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/55 "2008-06-05T03:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] Before we go any further, people, it’s “bloc” not “block.” 😃 [/QUOTE] Unless you’re Wile E. Coyote. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/56 "2008-06-05T03:59:23Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] Part of it comes from what I said above about being annoyed that I once again am basically in the position of voting against someone, rather then really being for someone. [/QUOTE] I have been voting against people since 1980, when I actually voted for John Anderson. Since then it has been the lesser of 2 (or 3) evils. ☹ > [@](#): > > Part of it is sheer stubbornness. I fully admit that is not a great point, but people saying essentially that “Ah, your candidate lost. Well I’m sure you can see the light now that OUR candidate is the superior choice and yours should be sent to Siberia.” really, really turns me off. My candidate was John Edwards. And I have been hearing how superior Hillary is to him, Obama, and everyone else since New Hampshire. A lot of things she and her campaign said and did really irritated me, and lowered my estimation of her as a person and a politician. But I would still have voted for her in November if she had won, because McCain should not be in charge of our country now. (Although I probably would have voted for him in 2000.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/57 "2008-06-05T04:05:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Phlosphr** : Vison - if I may. You sound like a woman I hold very dear and near to me…yep my mom. She’s a Pant-Suit woman and feminist to the core. Why do you have to keep talking about what these women wear? The organization _Women in Media_ are addressing some of the ways that women are still treated differently in the media and the issue of what women candidates are wearing – and in particular, Hillary’s pants suits – is one of them. I would have thought that your feminist-to-the-core mother would have taught you better. If you are going to post stupidly, don’t let people know that you support Obama. Of course Hillary will support Obama. She will campaign for him. She has a Yale law degree. Maybe she has her eye on SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/58 "2008-06-05T04:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Maybe she has her eye on SCOTUS. [/QUOTE] She’d make a great replacement for Antonin Scalia! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/59 "2008-06-05T04:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] She’d make a great replacement for Antonin Scalia! 🙂 [/QUOTE] Too old. They will want to put in someone in their early 50s for the longest possible term. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751/60 "2008-06-05T05:08:01Z")
[QUOTE=Lok] I have been voting against people since 1980, when I actually voted for John Anderson. Since then it has been the lesser of 2 (or 3) evils. ☹ [/quote] Only since 96 for me, but I can certainly sympathize. > [@](#): > > My candidate was John Edwards. And I have been hearing how superior Hillary is to him, Obama, and everyone else since New Hampshire. A lot of things she and her campaign said and did really irritated me, and lowered my estimation of her as a person and a politician. But I would still have voted for her in November if she had won, because McCain should not be in charge of our country now. (Although I probably would have voted for him in 2000.) I respect your position. The way people are reacting here you’d think I said I was going to campaign for McCain. I thought I’ve been fairly clear that I will likely vote Obama, but if you don’t understand why someone would be turned off from a candidate because their supporters have done a lot of things to turn you off…I’m not sure how else to explain it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-18-million-people-be-wrong/451751.md?page=4)