# How Can 59,054,087 People Be So Dumb? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995 "2004-11-04T17:09:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/61 "2004-11-04T19:13:54Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Oh please. Anyone who claims that the Democrats on this board wouldn’t be rubbing it in the faces of the Republicans if Kerry had won is a fucking moron. A couple of things: Strictly speaking, I am not a Democrat so I cannot claim to speak for them. Take my post as a general call to rise above this sort of behavior. You can believe me or not, but I would have been calling for the same thing from the other side had the results been different. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/62 "2004-11-04T19:15:36Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Anyone who claims that the Democrats on this board wouldn’t be rubbing it in the faces of the Republicans if Kerry had won is a fucking moron. That would be just as bad. Such behavior should be below all Dopers, this ain’t kindergarten. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/63 "2004-11-04T19:18:48Z")
BubbaDog, Just want to mention a thing or two to you as well. Throughout this election, and indeed in my life in general I have been making a very strong effort to realize that the folks that are different from me politically are not inherently stupid because of that (though to be honest, that part was not that difficult as I am past my early 20s and capable of seeing nuance). Not only that, but I have been really trying hard to see that the loyal opposition wants what is best for the country (though we disagree on a fundamental level as to what that is). So, I guess that what I am saying is that I would like for folks to at least try to do the same and that I am not seeing much of that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/64 "2004-11-04T19:23:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The thread title is the headline. I was afraid that would be the case… Well, this is the Pit, so it’s not like we have to take the sentiment seriously. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/65 "2004-11-04T19:26:26Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I have a novel idea: how about being the progressive, sensitive, New Age, enlightened party that appeals to voters and wins elections? That’s the goal, right? No. The goal is > [@](#): > > to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity Winning elections takes a specific skillset. It is one of the great travesties of our implementation of democracy that the skills needed to win elections are not the same as the ones needed to advance the goal quoted above. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/66 "2004-11-04T19:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. > > Winning elections takes a specific skillset. It is one of the great travesties of our implementation of democracy that the skills needed to win elections are not the same as the ones needed to advance the goal quoted above. Nonsense. FDR , Truman, and Lincoln all managed to do both. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/67 "2004-11-04T19:36:27Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > That would be just as bad. Such behavior should be below all Dopers, this ain’t kindergarten. We need a certain, albeit small, asshole quotient to serve as impetus, actually. It’s okay as long as the extreme assholery mostly balances, as Diogenes and Razorsharp are doing right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/68 "2004-11-04T19:37:52Z")
> [@Diogenes](#): > > You were wrong on monday, you were wrong on wednesday and you will still be wrong on saturday. Just because there’s more of you doesn’t mean you’re right. No. It just means we’re the ones making the Supreme Court appointments, passing the laws, and enforcing the laws. I think I’m right, You think I’m wrong. We disagree. But there’s no question who’s making the Supreme Court appointments, passing the laws, and enforcing the laws. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > Bricker, Way to reach across the aisle and be inclusive. You are just a class act all the way. :rolleyes: If I get a post that reaches across the aisle, like **gobear** ’s did, I respond in kind. If I get a post like **Diogenes** , insulting me, this is EXACTLY how I’m going to respond. Get used to it. It’s going to be a long four years, baby, if the left keeps using its “We are the only ones that know, and if you don’t agree with us, you’re a stupid bigot” approach. [quote=World Eater] I think we ought to form America Red and America Blue. That way America red can go do whatever they please. They can then face their own consequences and leave us out of it.] Heh heh heh. Ah, I see. Now we’re going for the practical approach, eh? > [@](#): > > Hey Rick can I go HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! if your family goes up in smoke? > > Real classy you fucking piece of scum. Thanks. Did your family go up in smoke? My thoughts and prayers are with you and them. Your political party lost because you’re too out of touch to understand that insulting the values and thoughts of the opposition is not the way to win? Then you get BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh, and if you engage in ridiculous hyperbole, like comparing a political loss to a family being burned alive? Then you get BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA and a pause for breath, followed by BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > What the hell, I know you weren’t talking to me, but: > > You stupid fuck, the answer is the former. _I’d_ rather be the only “progressive, sensitive, New Age, enlightened” individual in a world of you pricks than ride to power on the back of unabashed bigotry and ignorance. You think winning is a justification of the mindset that created that victory? Fuck that shit. 52% bigots or 1% bigots, they’re still fucking idiots. You want to gloat about a victory on those terms, enjoy yourself. Really, savor it. When the majority is wrong, wrong is right. Good. Then we have a deal. You keep being progressive, sensitive, New Age, and enlightened, and I’ll keep my party in power in the House, Senate, and White House. Fair deal, in my view. > [@gobear](#): > > I have a novel idea: how about being the progressive, sensitive, New Age, enlightened party that appeals to voters and wins elections? That’s the goal, right? Some folks, like World Eater are so wedded to their anger that they have lost soght of that. Well, I haven’t and I plan on working with Virginia Democrats to take back the House by keping our values byut presenting in a way that is positive, upbeat, and sucessful. > > To quote one of my favorite movies, "Your “best”! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen. Brilliant. **gobear** , you rock. Yet again **gobear** shows why his way of thinking poses the only real danger to GOP hopes in 2006 and 2008. Liberals, I beg of you, do not listen to **gobear**. Your leader is **Diogenes** , or **Jinx** , or **elucidator**. They understand you. Follow their lead. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/69 "2004-11-04T19:40:17Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > You can believe me or not, but I would have been calling for the same thing from the other side had the results been different. For what it’s worth, I believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/70 "2004-11-04T19:43:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Liberals, I beg of you, do not listen to **gobear**. Your leader is **Diogenes** , or **Jinx** , or **elucidator**. They understand you. Follow their lead. > > - Rick Well, fuck. If that’s the case, I withdraw my earlier offer to consider voting Democrat in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/71 "2004-11-04T19:46:47Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Problem is, Great Debates ain’t any better. And there’s a huge difference between “being nice” and “fighting ignorance.” Go ahead and attack each other, but childish namecalling won’t advance your cause, and does little more than make you look, well, childish. I disagree. GD is _much_ better. If someone insults you there, just email the moderator, and they’ll take care of it. You seem to be hanging out _here_, though, so I don’t know what you’re expecting. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/72 "2004-11-04T19:51:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …If I get a post that reaches across the aisle, like **gobear** ’s did, I respond in kind. If I get a post like **Diogenes** , insulting me, this is EXACTLY how I’m going to respond. Get used to it. It’s going to be a long four years, baby, if the left keeps using its “We are the only ones that know, and if you don’t agree with us, you’re a stupid bigot” approach… I understand. Please realize though that some of us are trying. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/73 "2004-11-04T19:52:13Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > For what it’s worth, I believe you. Given the current climate of division, bickering, fear and general fuckery it is worth a lot. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/74 "2004-11-04T19:52:19Z")
For those of you who say that **gobear** ’s proposal is one you can get behind, I have to ask this… Doesn’t it come across to you as pandering? Basically saying whatever is necessary to get elected/hold power/retain office. I mean, much like the complaints of Kerry not truly being a hunter. Now I’m not dogging **gobear** ’s suggestion, I can certainly see where he’s coming from and how it might seem like the only and best option for us to have the liberal voice heard. But it comes across as odd that those who are strict opposites politically would choose something that would undoubtedly change once the race is over. I’m sure no one would want that, right? As an example, isn’t that why there’s been a lot of problems passing calls for gaming extensions that are supposed to have a percentage of profits going towards education but didn’t? And now folks won’t have it because they refuse to be twice burned. Lastly, I’m also for always talking rationally, responsibly, calmly, respectfully and with compassion and understanding to get a point across. I just can’t quite grasp that this is the best way to go about it for all parties involved. I can’t imagine it would be a good thing to be represented as disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![smartini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@smartini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smartini)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/75 "2004-11-04T19:52:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > \So… would you rather be the smart guys, the intelligentsia, the progressive, sensitive, New Age, enlightened party that has a steadily shrinking and one might even say largely irrelevant role in American politics in the next two years? > > Or would you rather be the dumb goofball idiot party that actually controls all three branches of American government? > (snip\> I’ll take “smart and progressive” for $500, Alex. **Bricker** , are you calling your own party a “dumb goofball idiot party”? Just remember where you heard it. 🙂 As for the OP, the 2004 election is over. My candidate lost. I feel a little numb and subdued. Kind of like a killer hangover without the fun of the alcohol. But while I think the November 2 result is a sad fact for our country I don’t write off the 51% of the people who voted differently as dumb. They stepped up and exercised their vote. I’m glad they did that. I wish I had been able to convince more of them to vote differently but I didn’t and obviously, neither did my candidate of choice. I further think there are some smart, intelligent, _different opinioned_ posters here at SDMB that I would love to have a calm discussion with about our differences. Frankly that is the only way I see any of us moving to some middle ground…and discounting the right-left, liberal-conservative-moderate rhetoric…some degree of middle ground is where we are going to find the answers to the division we are experiencing. I choose to be optimistic about it. If we are lucky we can manage to grow as a country through some of this pain. We’re still so very young as countries go…a bunch of hot-headed, hormone-charged adolescents…no wonder we yell and scream and carry on. Be glad that we can do that with impunity. I choose to be happy that so many of us voted and voiced their opinions. I hope that I can do something, however small, in the next 3 years to help us grow in the best direction. I’m not happy with where we are. The good news is that because I live here I can try to change it. We can try to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/76 "2004-11-04T19:59:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If I get a post like Diogenes, insulting me… How did I insult you, by telling you “you are wrong” (in response to a “neener neener” post, I might add)? Is that an insult these days? I’ve actually gone out of my way to be civil to you personally because you’ve never been a jerk to me. I admit to letting loose a little election night invective against Bush voters in general, but I haven’t insulted you specifically, have I? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/77 "2004-11-04T20:01:50Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Nonsense. FDR , Truman, and Lincoln all managed to do both. The skillsets are not mutually exclusive, and I have never claimed they were. I am pointing out that it is possible to run a fantastic campaign and win wide voter support and still be a really shitty governor when examined against those overriding goals. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/78 "2004-11-04T20:03:46Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > That’s not what you asked. This very explanation is, in itself, a misrepresentation. Hey, sorry you feel that way. I did not intend to do so. Is everybody taking crazy pills? Why would you defend his statements? He linked a dubious article and then nobody called him on it, and I’M your biggest worry? That you would follow me to another thread? > [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > One last time: why, other than “leading Diogenes,” did you falsely cite what was represented in _The Guardian_ article? One last time, indeed. :dubious: Here’s one for you: Don’t you threaten me unless you intend to fly to Phoenix and do so face-to-face, pal. I haven’t the time for your pissy attitude. I was paraphrasing what I felt Dio had gotten from the article. He could not possibly have gotten anything else from it. There wasn’t enough facts there to draw any conclusions. He’s clarified his position. I happen to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/79 "2004-11-04T20:07:29Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > On the other hand, if you or **Dio** or anybody else uses the tired old tactic of “you disagree with me so you must be stupid”, I’m still gonna call that a whine. We’ve touched on this in other threads, but I want to address it because I think it’s an important point. Not that you’re saying it, but I think a lot of people _have_ implied that this is all just about _partisan_ differences, and that Democrats are basically bent out of shape over nothing. But it goes way beyond that. Bush has crossed the line from simple ideological differences to the point where we truly believe he is doing irreparable harm to the country. I think a woman’s right to decide what happens to her body should not be messed with, and that gay people should have the same rights as everyone else - but I understand that others disagree. I think it’s foolish to cut taxes at a time when there are record defecits - but I acknowledge that, however unwise it seems to me, that others disagree. I think it’s short-sighted to endanger our wilderness by drilling for oil in Alaska, and to cut _back_ on environmental regulations when we should be _strengthening_ them. But even this I will concede is a partisan difference. I think the long-term goal of protecting our health and natural resources is more important than short-term gains of big business, but I realize that others disagree. BUT, invading the WRONG country, at the cost of 1000 American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, and billions of taxpayer dollars, and grossly distorting the evidence in order to justify it, is not a partisan issue. It’s just wrong. In fact, it is evil. This is not partisan whining, it simply transcends ideological differences between the parties. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/80 "2004-11-04T20:18:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How did I insult you, by telling you “you are wrong” (in response to a “neener neener” post, I might add)? Is that an insult these days? I’ve actually gone out of my way to be civil to you personally because you’ve never been a jerk to me. I admit to letting loose a little election night invective against Bush voters in general, but I haven’t insulted you specifically, have I? No, I admit you haven’t insulted me specifically. You did, however, ask how 59,054,087 people could be so dumb, and since I’m one of those 59,054,087, I feel entitled to take a bit of umbrage at the suggestion. It’s that post that created the “neener, neener,” response. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not sitting here choking back tears at you lumping me in with 59,054,086 other people that you call dumb. But that attack is symptomatic of what drove me crazy these past five years here on the board: that if a political view doesn’t match yours, it’s dumb. It’s NOT, necessarily. It is different. Calling it dumb is both wrong and a practical error in strategy, as has been demonstrated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995.md?page=5)