# How Can 59,054,087 People Be So Dumb?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [November 4, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995 "2004-11-04T17:09:19Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/121 "2004-11-04T21:43:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> _by John Mace_
> 
> You must be feeling especially generous, **Rick**. It should be 3, and maybe 4, SC Justices, and you forget to mention the 3 net Governorships that the Pubs picked up. 🙂

On that note, did it raise your eyebrows, back in September of 2003, when Senator Edwards vacated his seat for a run at the White House? I mean, Erskine Bowles? Criminy, it might as well have been James Carville.

It seemed like a tactical error at the time, and now, I think Edwards could have beaten Burr. Why do they do these things?

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**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/122 "2004-11-04T21:44:25Z")

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> [@El Cid Viscoso](#):
>
> Mr Kerry isn’t seen as “widely unpopular” because voters in Ohio and Colorado were galvanized against him, he’s “widely unpopular” because a very big portion of our population is old enough to remember the Vietnam War. And of that group, at least half of them have an extreme, visceral reaction to Mr Kerry and his actions during and after the war. Simple as that.

I’m no spring chicken; I was around then. My anecdotal evidence is far different than your anecdotal evidence.

> [@](#):
>
> My neighborhood has more vets than Lee Marvin’s fan club. Mesa County is literally _swarming_ with veterans. And I’m sure results were similar down near Colorado Springs.

I’m sure they were. (goes to look at paper…) El Paso County went 67% for Bush. Both are conservative areas to start with - perhaps thats why conservative veterans like them.

> [@](#):
>
> It’s different in Denver – I know, I used to work there. It’s fairly far left, but it’s a tiny pocket in a big, red state. And before you say anything about the Senate and House races, the Salazars are a rational, experienced team.

You did notice that the legislature went Democratic too?

> [@](#):
>
> Their elections over Walcher and Coors show the informed nature of the average Colorado voter. 🙂

Agreed. 🙂

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**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/123 "2004-11-04T21:45:45Z")

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> [@gobear](#):
>
> Rehnquist for sure, and probably O’Connor, but who else do you see leaving the bench?

[Stevens](http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/legal_entity/101/) is almost 85.

[Ginsberg](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5454909) is 71. She’s the “maybe 4th”.

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**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/124 "2004-11-04T21:47:52Z")

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> [@Dio](#):
>
> I’m not interested in winning friends, I’m interested in saving my country from itself.

Thing is, my friend (and I hope I can still be your friend — I didn’t vote for Bush), you need numbers to do that. You now know that you can’t depend on 18-21-year-old slackers who merely _promise_ they’ll vote. You’re going to need to make friends with some dumb people.

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**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/125 "2004-11-04T21:49:28Z")

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> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Combine any other random thought you might have, and you’ll likely be twice as correct.

Too set in your ways for help with your grammar then?

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**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/126 "2004-11-04T21:50:49Z")

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> [@Roseworm](#):
>
> All the pundits and self-styled political experts got blind-sided on election night. The critical issue turned out to be, not the economy, not the war and foreign policy, but traditional values! And this crystallized around the issue of gay marriage. It is not an exaggeration to say that the Massachusetts Supreme Court (quite unwittingly) delivered the 2004 election to George W. Bush.
> 
> And the Dems never saw it coming. But there were clear warning signs. During the Missouri referendum, 45% of the electorate turned out (as opposed to the normal 15%) and the voting was 70+% conservative.

Yeah, I guess us uppity lib’rals are suffering from the delusion that _everyone’s_ rights should be respected, not _just_ the majority. God forbid you should ever find yourself in the minority on an issue, and have the tyranny of the majority run right over you.

Actually, that’d make a great Twilight Zone episode. Take some fundy who’s clamoring for the government to legislate his personal beliefs, then -poof- He’s all of a sudden living in a repressive Muslim country where he’s required by law to observe _their_ fundamentalist misinterpretation of _their_ religion. 😛

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/127 "2004-11-04T21:51:10Z")

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[QUOTE=Liberal]  
Been there. Saw the mall. It’s where my wife used to live. And her mother (now in Phoenix). And our daughter (now in Kansas City).

[quote]

The mall is for tourists. If you’re up here again, give me a call, I’ll show you where we keep the _good_ beer. 🙂

> [@](#):
>
> Cool. And how’d that work out for ya? 😉

We can sleep at night.

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**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/128 "2004-11-04T22:07:48Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It would be ABSOLUTELY out of line, yes.
> 
> Why do you ask?
> 
> That’s not what I did in the post you linked to.  
> …  
> Distinction clear?

Not particularly. Either the context changed, or your follow-up appears to be a non-sequitor. From your reply to me in that thread

> [@Bricker](#):
>
> There _is_ a bleating herd aspect to this board, and it’s increasingly irritating. People on the conservative side of the fence have stopped posting because of the political sway - Scylla, for example. I don’t feel like simply sitting by and letting these things go unchallenged.

So how did we get from moronic psychic predictions to politics? Was your “bleating herd” a castigation of people who did not examine psychic claims because of their political bent? Because I don’t seem to recall that happening with enough frequency to generate a group of “usual suspects”. How many threads have we had where Dion Warwick was given a pass because she supported Kerry? John Edward? Could you cite a few?

Enjoy,  
Steven

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**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/129 "2004-11-04T22:13:30Z")

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> [@Roseworm](#):
>
> All they do is talk down to them in that infuriating You-are-obviously-too-stupid-to-run-your-own-life-so-you-have-no-choice-but-to-vote-for-me-so-that-I-can-run-your-life-for-you way so typical of the Liberal elite.

I’ve been hearing more of this sort of thing from conservatives lately, and it’s really pissing me off. We aren’t the ones telling people they are sinners if they like to fuck before they are married, or if they fuck people with the same parts as themselves. We aren’t the ones who say that anyone who criticizes the administration is unpatriotic, a traitor, and/or supporting the terrorists. We aren’t the ones who put God in the Pledge of Allegiance and on our money. We aren’t the ones who insist that we should trade civil liberties for the illusion of safety.

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**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/130 "2004-11-04T22:16:46Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Keep posting how dumb we are, **Dio**. I enjoy laughing at each one of your desperate posts.

Hey **Bricker**!

When your stocks double in price, but they’re only worth half what they used to be in real terms because the dollar is in the toilet, come back and tell me how smart you all were.

Sometimes getting what you wish for can be a real bitch.

If only the rest of us weren’t stuck on the same trip.  
And I’ll let other people talk about Iraq, and I’ll leave global warming for another time.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/131 "2004-11-04T22:25:25Z")

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> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> Not particularly. Either the context changed, or your follow-up appears to be a non-sequitor. From your reply to me in that thread
> 
> > [@Bricker](#):
> >
> > There _is_ a bleating herd aspect to this board, and it’s increasingly irritating. People on the conservative side of the fence have stopped posting because of the political sway - Scylla, for example. I don’t feel like simply sitting by and letting these things go unchallenged.
> 
> So how did we get from moronic psychic predictions to politics? Was your “bleating herd” a castigation of people who did not examine psychic claims because of their political bent? Because I don’t seem to recall that happening with enough frequency to generate a group of “usual suspects”. How many threads have we had where Dion Warwick was given a pass because she supported Kerry? John Edward? Could you cite a few?

No, no. The “bleating herd” chimed in to agree with the soothsaying “I knew it all along.” That they did so eagerly because these after-the-fact-predictions were anti-Bush is unquestionable, but what earned them the disdain was NOT the mere fact that they were anti-Bush, but that they were uncritically accepting of anti-Bush rhetoric when they would have been all over a psychic using similar tactics.

Let’s say someone showed up in that old thread and said, “Look, folks, I hate Bush six times as much as the next guy. He’s a disaster for the country and I’ll vote for a spotted owl before I vote for him. But you can’t say that a terror alert is ‘right on schedule’ _after it happens_, implying that it was part of an obvious, overall plan – unless you have evidence of that plan and can back it up. If you can predict the event AHEAD of time, that would be a good way to show you have such evidence and there is a ‘schedule’.”

Now, would I have grouped that Bush-hater in with the “bleating herd?”

Of course not.

Sadly, no such poster appeared.

Which sort of proved the point I was making.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/132 "2004-11-04T22:27:42Z")

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> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> Hey **Bricker**!
> 
> When your stocks double in price, but they’re only worth half what they used to be in real terms because the dollar is in the toilet, come back and tell me how smart you all were.
> 
> Sometimes getting what you wish for can be a real bitch.
> 
> If only the rest of us weren’t stuck on the same trip.  
> And I’ll let other people talk about Iraq, and I’ll leave global warming for another time.

Ah, predictions.

I like predictions.

So - would you care to wager on “…half what they used to be in real terms because the dollar is in the toilet?” Not going to happen, says I. What do you say again?

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**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/133 "2004-11-04T22:31:57Z")

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> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> I’m not interested in winning friends, I’m interested in saving my country from itself.

And this is the soundbite that defines the liberal elite:

You’re a moron.

You can’t be trusted to govern yourself.

Vote for us!

Do you see how this strategy doesn’t work? Do you really want to see Republicans capture 60 seats in the senate in 2006 and not even have to worry about a filibuster? Because if Democrats continue with this attitude, that will be the result.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/134 "2004-11-04T22:58:47Z")

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What are we _supposed_ to do, surrender? Bush IS a disaster. The country IS in danger, it WAS fucking dumb to reelect him.

This is like watching a bunch of people let a monkey fly an airplane just to spite the people who don’t like the monkey.

Well, the Bush voters have made their own bed. They’ll have only themselves to blame when it collapses.

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**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/135 "2004-11-04T23:03:20Z")

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> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Bush IS a disaster.

No, he’s more of a human hurricane. He’s not a disaster; he puts disasters in motion. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/136 "2004-11-04T23:03:34Z")

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> [@gobear](#):
>
> And yes, I’m a confirmed atheist, and I’m also a confirmed civil libertarian.

Dunno about civil libertarians, but I didn’t think atheists had confirmation ceremonies. 😕

Was it just me, or did anyone else think the _Mirror_ was scraping the bottom of the barrel drumming up anti-Bush quotes? “Tony Juniper” of Friends of the Earth (Jennifer’s husband?), someone from the Nasserite party in Egypt, and the _former_ prime minister of Nigeria, Bolaji Akinyemi: "“The Americans have voted for a militarised Rambo rather than someone who appeals to their reason”.

The last Nigerian who appealed to my reason wanted to give me $10 million if I’d just let him use my bank account for a little while.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/137 "2004-11-04T23:14:32Z")

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You _did_ say “No”, right?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/138 "2004-11-04T23:27:14Z")

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> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> What are we _supposed_ to do, surrender? Bush IS a disaster. The country IS in danger, it WAS fucking dumb to reelect him.

Oooh. I can almost see those 60 Senate seats.

Present your ideas. Stop calling your opponents stupid (because they’re not). Stop claiming that your opinion is indisputable objective fact (because it isn’t).

Consider the possibility: maybe people weren’t snowed. Maybe they actually evaluated the two candidates and chose the leader without being tricked or defrauded.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/139 "2004-11-04T23:33:34Z")

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> [@emarkp](#):
>
> Consider the possibility: maybe people weren’t snowed. Maybe they actually evaluated the two candidates and chose the leader without being tricked or defrauded.

What happens though, when you have first hand experience with _plenty_ of people who did not do what you suggest? I’m certainly not using any epithets to describe them, but exactly what does one do and think when that’s the case? Because reasoned, intellectual discourse doesn’t appeal to them. And if you present things in a manner of respectful deference, they aren’t even remotely interested. I’m more than willing to learn anything that will help me understand opposing views better and to work for a united America that we ALL can be proud of despite partisan lines.

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**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\
**Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-59-054-087-people-be-so-dumb/272995/140 "2004-11-04T23:35:27Z")

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> [@emarkp](#):
>
> Consider the possibility: maybe people weren’t snowed. Maybe they actually evaluated the two candidates and chose the leader without being tricked or defrauded.

And _maybe_ stupidity isn’t endemic in our society of barely-literate high school grads and reality television. And _maybe_ I am a long-lost heir of Polish royalty. :rolleyes: Its walks. It quacks. It’s an effing duck.

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