# How can a Christian university teach science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619 "2001-09-10T04:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/1 "2001-09-10T04:12:21Z")
While looking at the website of Bob Jones University…I came across this on the Biology Department’s home page. - Science, as understood by the public, is largely infiltrated and controlled by the godless ideology of evolutionism… Bob Jones University offers a major in biology on a firm philosophical basis that combines scientific excellence with an emphasis on the Biblical account of creation. - [http://www.bju.edu/academic/admissions/pops/pops.asp?section=biology](http://www.bju.edu/academic/admissions/pops/pops.asp?section=biology) Now I realize Bob Jones university is ultraconservative, but is this approach common in faith based institutions? Would Baylor, or Notre Dame have anything similar? I couldn’t find much on the web. On BYU’s page, they don’t condemn evolution explicitly - but any mention of it was absent from these course descriptions. [http://ar.byu.edu/catalog/undergrad\_cat/2000/departments/Biology.html](http://ar.byu.edu/catalog/undergrad_cat/2000/departments/Biology.html) Yet I imagine that in a ‘secular’ university, whole courses may be devoted to evolution. I am not a scientist myself, so my knowledge of biology is limited. But I have a difficult time understanding how biology could be taught in a place where evolution is considered not only false but dangerous thinking. And how would they explain dinosaurs, or \*Australopithecus Africanus \* fossils? Would a biology, or paleontology degree, from a conservative Christian university be suspect in the eyes of the scientific community? ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/2 "2001-09-10T04:16:29Z")
…I now realize my thread title is very very broad, so I should say 'Can a fundamentalist university teach science effectively?"… \<\<\<\< ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/3 "2001-09-10T04:20:14Z")
Only a few of the colleges and universities commonly considered as Christian have any problems with teaching science. While Bob Jones clearly has an issue, schools like Notre Dame, Holy Cross, etc don’t see science conflicting with Christianity any more than most Christian scientists do. I think you are misinformed when you think that Christian implies a conflict with science. Good think I previewed, I see you have refined your question and my point is moot. I haven’t looked at all the fundementalist universities, but I suspect there is some fancy footwork going on. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/4 "2001-09-10T04:50:10Z")
My sister went to a christian school and my Dad just could not believe some of the stuff they tried to shovel. Her science class was a joke. They put her in the school jsut because the schools here are not safe. They were dangerous when I graduated five years ago and apparently they are worse now. She’s out of the clutches of christianity now though. Erek ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/5 "2001-09-10T05:10:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > \*\*My sister went to a christian school and my Dad just could not believe some of the stuff they tried to shovel. Her science class was a joke. They put her in the school jsut because the schools here are not safe. They were dangerous when I graduated five years ago and apparently they are worse now. She’s out of the clutches of christianity now though. > > Erek \*\* It’s criminal to miseducate young people this way. These so-called schools that the fundamentalist run should all be shut down. Period. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/6 "2001-09-10T05:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by galen \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > > \*\*My sister went to a christian school and my Dad just could not believe some of the stuff they tried to shovel. Her science class was a joke. They put her in the school jsut because the schools here are not safe. They were dangerous when I graduated five years ago and apparently they are worse now. She’s out of the clutches of christianity now though. > > > > Erek \*\* > > It’s criminal to miseducate young people this way. These so-called schools that the fundamentalist run should all be shut down. Period. \*\* I agree, but religious freedoms and all that rot. If I went and shut down their schools, then they’d be able to take away my right of free speech. And well, if they did that how could I carry a picket saying they are full of shit? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/7 "2001-09-10T05:51:13Z")
You certainly cannot equate Catholicism with fundamentalism. Catholics have no problem with modern science. From the Notre Dame website: > [@](#): > > Program in Biological Sciences > > The biological sciences encompass all aspects of microbial, plant, and animal life. They include the biochemistry, genetics, development, physiology, evolution and ecology of all living things. Every educated person must have sound knowledge of the fundamental principles and facts of the biological sciences in order to understand himself or herself and the world in which he or she lives. In addition, biologists through their research contribute to the development of theories and methods required for the solution of humanity’s problems in the fields of health, agriculture, industry and the preservation of the environment. > Ecology, Evolution, and Environmental Biology (EEEB) > > Major research topics of the EEEB program are aquatic ecology, with an emphasis on benthic processes, wetland ecosystem ecology, evolutionary ecology and mechanisms of speciation, terrestrial population ecology, and microbial ecology and applied microbiology. Faculty study all levels of ecological organization (molecular, individuals, populations, communities, and ecosystems), with collaboration among labs common. A particular strength of the EEEB program is in environmental restoration and exotic species. Also, a number of faculty study the ecology of insects. Experiments range in scale from laboratory microcosms to whole ecosystem manipulation. All of the research of the EEEB faculty incorporates both applied and basic aspects. > 305. Evolution > The mechanisms and processes involved in the production of life as we know it today, as well as a discussion on the impact current events may have upon life in the future. > > 1. Molecular Genetics > The course will introduce the tools of modern molecular biology and explore their applications at the frontiers of biological research. Advanced topics may include molecular medicine, biotechnology, development, evolution and neurobiology. > > 2. Integrative Comparative Physiology > General physiological principles are introduced and the course is designed around the classical organ/system approach to physiology but with stress on comparative and evolutionary relationships. Emphasis is placed on the integrated nature of the various physiological systems, and on the relationships of the physiology of the organism to its environment (physiological ecology) as well as to the lower levels of biological hierarchy (biochemistry, cell and molecular biology). Special emphasis is placed on adaptations to environmental extremes. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/8 "2001-09-10T06:07:28Z")
Huh, well, there you go. IANAXian, but would think that a responsible Xian education institution would at least offer a student the alternatives of evolution vs creation, and let the student decide for themselves in that context. ---
**Author:** ![puk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ea5d25/32.png) [@puk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puk)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/9 "2001-09-10T10:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jaimest \* > Would a biology, or paleontology degree, from a conservative Christian university be suspect in the eyes of the scientific community? Do they even teach paleontology? Judging from the websites, this is not the case. As for biology: evolution is only a small part of the entire course. I guess the overall worth of the degree is no less than one from an otherwise equivalent University. The only time the degree would be suspect is if someone with said degree writes a paper on a subject related to evolution. I asume this paper would not be published in any of the mainstream journals. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/10 "2001-09-10T17:54:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > \*\*IANAXian, but would think that a responsible Xian education institution would at least offer a student the alternatives of evolution vs creation, and let the student decide for themselves in that context. \*\* BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAH! I fully agree with you on this point, but a faculty willing to expose its students to such challenging ideas would not be fundamentalist by its very nature. I certainly don’t expect to see anything like this happen in _this_ century. ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/11 "2001-09-10T18:32:30Z")
I went to Messiah College, a small Christian school in PA. The following link is to there Biology curriculum: [http://www.messiah.edu/catalog/department/natural/bio.shtml](http://www.messiah.edu/catalog/department/natural/bio.shtml) The word evolution shows up only in the course description for _BIO 421 Evolutionary Theory (3)_. The description is > [@](#): > > A survey and assessment of evolutionary theory and an exploration of its application to biological systems and its implications for Christian faith. Topics will focus on development of the theory from Darwin’s postulates of natural selection through Fisher’s mathematics of the selective process, Mayr’s synthesis with modern genetics, Gould’s reflection on the necessity of optimization, and recent advances in molecular systematics. Three hours of lecture and discussion per week . IANAB (_Biologist_), however, in their general education courses they discussed various philosophies dispationately enough that many colleagues had difficulty retaining the belief that Christianity is viable. I rather suspect that inasmuch as they discuss, they will try to give it as fair a shake as possible within their context. Like I said, IANAB, so I can’t comment if they give Evolution enough time. Tinker ---
**Author:** ![Spamagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58f4c7/32.png) [@Spamagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spamagnet)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/12 "2001-09-10T18:45:46Z")
As a Christian, I find this sort of thread really sad. When did we Christians turn into a bunch of arrogant, isolationist, anti-scientific pricks? I can’t figure out if most of us **really are** pricks or if it’s just the vocal minority who make us look that way. I really hope it’s the latter, but then that just means the rest of us let the pricks hog the spotlight. Not very flattering either way. Here’s how a Christian should behave: 1. With humility, always respecting others and their beliefs. 2. With love and kindness toward all, even enemies. 3. Desiring to know TRUTH above all, and always speaking the truth in love. Most of these things are near-quotes from Jesus … who most Christians claim to try to be like. If you see a Christian who isn’t doing these things – or at least trying – you have permission to question whether they really a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Billy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/13 "2001-09-10T19:45:54Z")
Tell it, brother. (Or sister.) An interesting parallel to the question of whether a conservative Christian institution can confer degrees that are scientifically respectable arises in seminaries, believe it or not. Virtually all elite universities offering PhD’s in hermeneutics/ancient languages/biblical literature are more-or-less explicitly secular in their approach to scripture. In order to get their MDiv grads into the bigtime programs, therefore, conservative seminaries must at least ensure that their students are fluent in – if not necessarily in agreement with – the history and practice of grammatico-critical exegesis, etc. It seems to work out ok for the seminary students. And judging from the level of success that many Christian universities have in placing pre-med students, I imagine it works ok for the science folks as well. Thankfully, the things that BJU has come to represent are not indicative of the approach most Christians take to the pursuit of Truth. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/14 "2001-09-10T22:00:32Z")
I took an paleontology class at BYU in 1990. The professor at the start of the first class explained that he would be teaching according to understood scientific priciples. He explained that this would at points disagree with LDS doctrine, but everyone would be graded on the material in the class. The students were allowed to believe whatever they wanted, but use of young Earth etc. arguements would earn a failing grade within that class. This was the only time the subject came up. So not all Religious Universities stick to doctrine over scientific theory. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/15 "2001-09-10T23:31:23Z")
yo, bartman! what the hell kind of message does that send to the students? was this instructor’s methods and attitudes understood by the administration? seems to me they must disregard what they have been told is “correct (true?)” in order to pass the class! i dont get it! (brain siezing up, smoke coming out ears) sorry, cant type fast enough to keep up with train of thought. my only experiance with this dilemma was when i lived with a lady and her 10 yr old son. i used to help him with his homework (went to god school). i cound not be a party to the crap this school was foisting on this poor kid and calling it “science”. he was a pretty smart kid and had questions that could not be explained without “blowing the bible angle” and i felt compelled to give it to him straight. (we watched alot of “nova” when his mom was at work, turned him onto Unca Cecil and “The Straight Dope”). led to a few problems in the house. i eventually moved on and found a partner with whom i share more in common, he grew up and is a fine young man and his mom is doing fine also (except for those damn firestone tires) ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/16 "2001-09-10T23:45:11Z")
I am not suggesting that Christians are arrogant isolationalist ‘pricks’ ( **Spamagnet** , does your pastor know you used that word?). My point is how do conservative Christian institutions reconcile ‘science’ and ‘faith’? A person can be absolutely brilliant and be a Christian who hold creationist views. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_the\_Shrubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@Roger\_the\_Shrubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_the_Shrubber)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/17 "2001-09-10T23:47:45Z")
…I now realize my thread title is very very broad, so I should say 'Can a fundamentalist university teach science effectively?"… Yeah, THAT title isn’t offensive. Speaking as a christian, I am offended by the statement that, because of some disagreements between the xian/secular scientific communities, christians are totally unqualified to teach **any** science **at all.** Unless i’m misunderstanding. If so, set me straight. Dave: If you think this should happen, then secular schools should also teach both viewpoints. (I personally think that it should be this was in secular schools, evolution having many holes. [no it doesn’t! he’s a witch! burn him!] ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/18 "2001-09-10T23:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puk \* > As for biology: evolution is only a small part of the entire course. I would have to disagree. For my Bachelor’s, I was not only required to take an upper-division evolutionary biology course, but _every_ other course I took in the field was either taught from an evolutionary perspective or depended on competent knowledge and understanding of evolutionary theory. This includes invert. zoology, biochemistry, biological oceanography, population ecology, and so on ad infinitum. For my Master’s, I was again required to take an evolutionary biology class (graduate level), and it was also one of the fields we all had to take qualifying exams in. As Dobzhansky once said: “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.” I would suspect a biology degree from a university that didn’t teach evolution. (Of course, first I would have to know that it didn’t, which might not become apparent immediately.) ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/19 "2001-09-10T23:56:13Z")
I should also mention that, after looking at the website for Bob Jones U., I have no idea how I could teach some of the courses they offer without reference to evolution. I’m sure there’s some way to do it, but it wouldn’t make any sense to me. I doubt that it would make a lot of sense to most other biologists either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2001, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619/20 "2001-09-11T00:46:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gatopescado \* > seems to me they must disregard what they have been told is “correct (true?)” in order to pass the class! i dont get it! (brain siezing up, smoke coming out ears) sorry, cant type fast enough to keep up with train of thought. That’s not too strange. After all, if you were taking a course on Shakespeare, and you discussed what happened to MacBeth IRL instead of what happened in the play, it would be understandable for you to get a poor grade. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-christian-university-teach-science/80619.md?page=2)