# How can a Libertarian be opposed to the Right to Privacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001 "2011-11-05T22:33:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/61 "2011-11-10T02:51:32Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Again, wrong. The fundamentally libertarian position is that the fed shouldn’t be telling the states what to do. No. Libertarianism and Federalism are two completely independent philosophies. One needn’t be a Federalist to be a Libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/62 "2011-11-10T20:45:25Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > So individual choice and personal liberty reign supreme. The state on any level whether federal, provincial, municipal lacks the authority to enforce any kind of behavior on an individual. No, that would be anarchy. > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > It looks to me like libertarianism is primarily a means for those who happen to hold economic power - property - to impose their will on the rest of society. People that hold economic power will use what ever means available to impose their will on the rest of society. Libertarianism isn’t special or unique in that regard. Consider how it is that people gain and hold economic power. How often is it through government mandate that they do so? > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > The establishment of a democratic state could be seen simply as a collection of individuals joining forces to protect themselves and their liberties from the excesses of power. Lacking the power or means _as individuals_ to oppose abuses of power, they do it collectively. Right, that’s libertarianism. But eventually someone wants a drinking age or a brothel shut down and it snowballs from there. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/63 "2011-11-10T23:19:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Exactly. Libertarians are probably disproportionately agnostic/atheist, but not exclusively so. There are many pro-life Democrats, even though the party’s platform is pro-choice. And the LP’s platform is pro-choice, so it’s not some great “gotcha” as some people might think. You may be right about that. However, the “liberaltarians” are pretty silent. I admire Penn Jillette but it seems as if they are outnumbered by the new breed of Rand and Ron Paul conservative libertarians. There probably is a thread here somewhere discussing their disdain for the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. That is very problematic for me among many of their other views. (Aside - I acknowledge a crude term I used upthread, That was uncalled for and I apologize for doing such.) Anyhow, for such a small party I see the same liberal/conservative split that exists in the general population. I notice most of the libertarians at Reason Magazine attack The Right to Privacy as they defend the conservative concept of Originalism. I have stopped reading the publication due to their guest articles by the likes of Andrew Napolitano. I will read National Review if I want that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/64 "2011-11-11T08:35:17Z")
Hmmm…I always thought that the language “secure in their persons, papers, and property,” means, to some extent, privacy, such as, if I have a diary (papers) that the government can’t force its way into the pages, for example. I have to admit that I have a big issue with the supreme court for its jurispridence shifting away from “security” and into “privacy” while abandoning the concept of security in my papers, property, and person… So I have an issue with the “privacy” jurisprudence, even though I believe in privacy. I agree with Ron Paul. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/65 "2011-11-11T08:53:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It all depends on when you think a fetus attains the rights that Libertarians believe all people should have. Right, it is not inconsistent. And, for the poster claiming the libertarian party is pro-choice, I believe that was removed from the platform a number of years ago, in favor of the compromise that no abortion should be funded by tax dollars. Myself, I think the person becomes a person at conception. I see no more fundamental turning point or threshold for life than that, as soon as your cells start dividing with your unique DNA, you’re you. Nevertheless, I am “pro-choice” while deploring abortion as birth control. I would preserve abortion in the cases of rape or the damage to the health of the mother. But I also realize that irresponsible women will falsely claim rape more often, if abortion as birth control is outlawed, in order to get the abortion, creating all kinds of havoc for innocent men. Nor should a rape victim have to relive the rape multiple times to get her abortion. Abortion as choice as the lesser of the evils seems the best answer to an extremely complicated issue, but don’t tell me that women are entitled to a second choice about having a baby when a man isn’t. If it’s only about women getting to choose whether to have a pregnancy or not, except for the raped, a woman chooses when she chooses to have sex, the same as a man does. The Libertarian party is also the “party of personal responsibility,” do not forget. Somehow some women want a choice after learning the certain consequences–which they deny to men when they ask for child support after being completely contrary to the idea of getting married when you have a baby. That’s nearly always best for the baby, but we’re talking what’s best for women here–and sometimes that means a second choice, right, because that good-looking guy in the bar was a good choice for a one-night stand but not a good choice for being a dad? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/66 "2011-11-11T13:26:33Z")
People may have missed this the first time I posted it (from the Libertarian Party’s platform page): > [@](#): > > Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. > **[Platform page - Libertarian Party](https://lp.org/platform-page/)** > > Platform page - Libertarian Party So, Pro-Choice. Of curse, that doesn’t mean all Libertarians have to be Pro-Choice any more than Democrats “have to” be. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/67 "2011-11-11T14:16:45Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > People may have missed this the first time I posted it (from the Libertarian Party’s platform page): > > [Platform page - Libertarian Party](http://www.lp.org/platform) > > So, Pro-Choice. Of curse, that doesn’t mean all Libertarians have to be Pro-Choice any more than Democrats “have to” be. That is not a “pro-choice” platform plank. The pro-choice camp runs to the government for enforcement of their views just as much as the pro-lifers try to outlaw it. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/68 "2011-11-11T15:06:55Z")
People are still trying to make this about abortion. Privacy is a much larger concept. ‘Griswold’ was the landmark decision and is still being fought today while the famous libertarians I note oppose the SCOTUS ruling on that case. Until the LP embraces ‘Griswold’ they must be considered frauds in terms of liberty. They are merely the Club for Growth under another name. If a state wanted to outlaw contraception today’s LP would have no issue with that. That is unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/69 "2011-11-11T15:10:12Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > If a state wanted to outlaw contraception today’s LP would have no issue with that. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/70 "2011-11-11T15:19:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wrong. Are you personally in favor of the Griswold ruling? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/71 "2011-11-11T15:34:04Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Are you personally in favor of the Griswold ruling? I’m not a Libertarian, so what difference does it make? Besides, I could be in favor of the ruling, as a Constitutionalist, and against any legislation banning birth control, as a Libertarian. You should educate yourself on the difference. People have tried to explain that to you in this thread, but to no avail. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/72 "2011-11-11T15:56:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not a Libertarian, so what difference does it make? Besides, I could be in favor of the ruling, as a Constitutionalist, and against any legislation banning birth control, as a Libertarian. You should educate yourself on the difference. People have tried to explain that to you in this thread, but to no avail. I’m not interested in a detour into the clearly bogus concept of Originalism. That has been hashed out many times before. My question is why prominent libertarians reject the SCOTUS determined Right to Privacy. Occam says they are opposed to this right. I have no issue with Citizens United for instance. I consider it settled law although activist judges overturned the will of the people. Of course I also recognize the First Amendment absolutism argument for CU. Conservatives like the Pauls should just propose an amendment to ban contraception and abortion instead of their current tactic of Constitutional subterfuge. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/73 "2011-11-11T15:57:31Z")
It’s funny that we have, at the same time, an active thread where people are bemoaning that Libertarians would be OK with not limiting the sale of antibiotics, and another active thread bemoaning the idea that Libertarians would be OK with limiting the sale of contraceptives. The fact of the matter is, a Libertarian constitution (as opposed the US Constitution) would place severe restrictions on what the government could forbid in the way of commerce. People would be free to buy pretty much whatever they wanted, and there would be a pretty high “health and safety” bar that the government would have to pass in order to ban the sale of an item. Antibiotics, contraceptives, and most (all?) illegal drugs would fall well below that bar. You’d probably have to be somewhere on the level of “weapons grade uranium” to hit the bar, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some Libertarians would posit no bar at all. ETA: _Roe_ remains a controversial ruling that many liberal jurists are uncomfortable with. It’s settle law at this point in the US, but it is by no means unique to conservatives to criticize that ruling. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/74 "2011-11-11T16:04:56Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Until the LP embraces ‘Griswold’ they must be considered frauds in terms of liberty. They are merely the Club for Growth under another name. > > If a state wanted to outlaw contraception today’s LP would have no issue with that. That is unacceptable. What if a person accepts the results of Griswold but denies the reasoning of the majority to arrive at that decision? Myself, I favor Justice Goldberg’s concurrence arguing that privacy is a ninth amendment right. Can I have your permission to be a valid Libertarian now? And where on earth did you get the idea that Libertarians do not support Griswold anyway? Griswold shows the exact type of government interference that the LP stands against. I think you are confused about what Ron Paul is saying. He is correct, nowhere does the constitution spell out a right to privacy, per se. I complain of the same thing–the Supreme Court has given us an end run around the “security” language in the fourth amendment in favor of a privacy analysis which I disagree with, insofar as it focuses on privacy. If they want to enforce privacy, they should talk the ninth amendment, rather than hammering it into the fourth amendment. Nevertheless, I cannot imagine any kind of privacy without protections that the people remain secure in their persons, papers, and property. They go hand in hand, but the ninth amendment is the correct avenue to enforce privacy rights IMO. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/75 "2011-11-11T16:11:47Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Occam says they are opposed to this right. Abuse of Occam’s razor. Occam’s razor should only be employed, because it involves presumptions, where there is no evidence, to decide what is most likely. Here you can see evidence that what Libertarians want is not government outlawing contraception. It’s the methods the Supreme Court has used that we take issue with, not the results. BTW I disagree with the reasoning in _Roe_ as well as Griswold. How the S. Ct. could think that the philosophy of a minority Greek sect rules our Constitution or the Common Law is beyond me. They should have found their answer in the common law. But there I have a problem with the results. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/76 "2011-11-11T16:37:40Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Thoecrats like Napilatano and Ron Paul want states to enact anti-contraception laws, anti-sodomy laws, anti-ESCR laws and the like. > > They hide behind the false cloak of “Libertarianism” while they want to enshrine Catholic Wahabi style Sharia’ law in the USA. And with that, the shark jumps. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/77 "2011-11-11T17:53:08Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > People are still trying to make this about abortion. > > Privacy is a much larger concept. ‘Griswold’ was the landmark decision and is still being fought today while the famous libertarians I note oppose the SCOTUS ruling on that case. > > Until the LP embraces ‘Griswold’ they must be considered frauds in terms of liberty. They are merely the Club for Growth under another name. > > If a state wanted to outlaw contraception today’s LP would have no issue with that. That is unacceptable. The LP party wouldn’t need to embrace Griswold, as a Libertarian style government would absolutely forbid the state from making laws regarding sex between consenting adults. It would absolutely embrace the effect that Griswold reached. A lot of people aren’t comfortable with the legal reasoning in Griswold, but many of those same people agree with the effect. To be clear: Not allowing the government to regulate sexual activity = good. Doing it via a somewhat strained interpretation of the Constitution = not as good. Doing it by amending the Constitution to embrace the idea that government should have absolutely no role in adults’ consensual sex lives = much better. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/78 "2011-11-14T16:51:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. “Liberals” view all sorts of civil rights that libertarian don’t agree with. While they may agree that the government cannot discriminate, they would allow private individuals to do so. This was Ronald Reagan’s view for a while. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/79 "2011-11-14T16:55:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This was Ronald Reagan’s view for a while. Just to clarify, because my wording was a bit sloppy, I should have said “the private sector”, meaning restaurants, movie theaters, etc. I would suspect that Libertaria would have its share of “Whites Only” and probably “Blacks Only” restaurants, there being a market for that sort of thing, not matter how small. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001/80 "2011-11-14T16:58:32Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Right, it is not inconsistent. And, for the poster claiming the libertarian party is pro-choice, I believe that was removed from the platform a number of years ago, in favor of the compromise that no abortion should be funded by tax dollars. That right there is something I would have a problem with. Why single out abortion as something you dont want to fund? In theory Libertarians are against funding a whole lot of stuff so when they have an abortion line item in their platform, it tells me that libertarians have been coopted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-libertarian-be-opposed-to-the-right-to-privacy/602001.md?page=5)