# How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755 "2006-11-25T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/21 "2006-11-25T23:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] And what would He need with a starship? [/QUOTE] He really liked that “We Built This City On Rock And Roll” song. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/22 "2006-11-25T23:38:36Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Compare that to, say, a baby who dies of AIDS, a disease created by God in a manner that allows it to infect babies. 1. The perpetrator of this crime knows exactly what He’s doing. 2. The victim doesn’t know what’s going to happen and doesn’t go along willingly with the process. 3. The parents know what’s going to happen but are powerless ot prevent the process. 4. The baby doesn’t know the cause of the disease, the effect of the disease, or the actions by which he or she will get the disease, and does nothing that causes his or her death to occur. On what basis was killing Jesus worse than God’s killing of infants? God did nothing to prevent mass murder in order to convince the survivors to pay Him homage? That’s really sick. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if someone like you convinces me that their God is real, they’ll have a much harder time convincing me that their God isn’t thoroughly evil. Daniel [/QUOTE] You seem stuck on this death thing. To us theists, death is just a move without all the boxes. The body dies. The soul does not. You see how that perspective changes things. You’re talking about oblivion. We see a change from one world to the next. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/23 "2006-11-25T23:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] You seem stuck on this death thing. To us theists, death is just a move without all the boxes. The body dies. The soul does not. You see how that perspective changes things. You’re talking about oblivion. We see a change from one world to the next. [/QUOTE] Nah–suffering is plenty. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/24 "2006-11-25T23:47:48Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Nah–suffering is plenty. Daniel [/QUOTE] Well, there you have me. Why does G-d allow suffering? How is it Tom Cruise is rich and famous and I’m not? Why is all the really good food fattening and high in cholesterol? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/25 "2006-11-25T23:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Nah–suffering is plenty. Daniel [/QUOTE] Exactly. It is especially plenty if the suffering of \*another \*is intended to bring \*me \*into the fold. Screw that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/26 "2006-11-25T23:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] Well, there you have me. Why does G-d allow suffering? How is it Tom Cruise is rich and famous and I’m not? Why is all the really good food fattening and high in cholesterol? [/QUOTE] The answer to all these questions, IMO, is the same: either there is no God, or God’s a jerk. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/27 "2006-11-25T23:59:56Z")
There are other alternatives hashed out in other GD threads. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/28 "2006-11-26T00:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] There are other alternatives hashed out in other GD threads. [/QUOTE] Indeed there are. Given the arguments and evidence I have seen, however, I find the options I listed to be far likelier than any other alternative I’ve encountered. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/29 "2006-11-26T00:11:17Z")
Well, AFAIC the important thing is to try be good to your neighbor and realize not all theists are blithering idiots. From an atheist perspective, some of us are otherwise inteligent and logical people except for our G-d delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/30 "2006-11-26T00:19:38Z")
Trolls come in all forms, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/31 "2006-11-26T00:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] Well, AFAIC the important thing is to try be good to your neighbor and realize not all theists are blithering idiots. From an atheist perspective, some of us are otherwise inteligent and logical people except for our G-d delusion. [/QUOTE] That’s not always a good thing, though. While there’s an extent to which theists and atheists get along, there are topics in which one side is associated with one group (anti-stem cell research and anti-gay rights, for example) in which I as an athiest would very much like to be opposed by blundering idiots. An intelligent and logical person with one delusion is a lot more dangerous than a simple nutcase. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/32 "2006-11-26T01:19:25Z")
If we are gods children he is guilty of child abuse. Alert the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/33 "2006-11-26T02:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Trolls come in all forms, don’t they? [/QUOTE] Technically, we’re not supposed to apply the T word to another member or guest outside the Pit, even by implication. But being as you’ve brought it up, I cannot resist linking you to the [Church Under the Bridge](http://www.churchunderthebridge.org/)! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/34 "2006-11-26T02:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] I can 100% honestly say without hesitation that when the next attack happens it will make 9/11 look like a walk in the park. At that point you will see greatness. [/QUOTE] (A) How can you 100% honestly predict the future? (B) What is this “next attack” you’re talking about? Why isn’t the “next attack” something that has already occured, like the 7/7/05 London bombings or one of the failed terrorist attempts? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/35 "2006-11-26T02:57:55Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] I can 100% honestly say without hesitation that when the next attack happens it will make 9/11 look like a walk in the park. **At that point you will see greatness.** [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) Pretty fine line between the people like this and Al-Qaeda. Sounds to me like this guy is salivating for the next terrorist attack as much as bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/36 "2006-11-26T03:22:13Z")
What’s funny/creepy about this thread is that just last night, I watched the movie _Constantine_ on DVD. The plot, WHICH I AM ABOUT TO SPOIL, involves the angel Gabriel plotting to bring the anti-Christ to Earth, because humans really only show their capacity for greatness under adverse conditions. And what condition could be more adverse than a literal hell on Earth? Turns out in the end, God was not best pleased with Gabriel’s plan. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/37 "2006-11-26T03:38:43Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] Well, AFAIC the important thing is to try be good to your neighbor and realize not all theists are blithering idiots. From an atheist perspective, some of us are otherwise inteligent and logical people except for our G-d delusion. [/QUOTE] Absolutely–I agree. My beliefs are that: 1. God probably doesn’t exist; and 2. If God exists, he’s probably very evil; and 3. If he exists and he’s not evil, he’s got some 'splainin to do if he wants me to believe him about the whole “not evil” business. However, I don’t believe that: 4) I’ve got all the answers and anyone who disagree is an idiot. Sure, I hold my beliefs, but I’ve got only a tiny piece of the puzzle, and it’s different from the pieces other folks have. I don’t necessarily think your piece is any better than mine, but I don’t think it’s any worse, either; and if it’s led you to conclusions different from mine, well, that’s pretty interesting and worthy of respect. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/38 "2006-11-26T05:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Technically, we’re not supposed to apply the T word to another member or guest outside the Pit, even by implication. But being as you’ve brought it up, I cannot resist linking you to the [Church Under the Bridge](http://www.churchunderthebridge.org/)! 😃 [/QUOTE] Heh. Very nice. Also, I did not know about the “troll” policy. I know for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/39 "2006-11-26T05:59:54Z")
😕 😕😕😕 😕 We’re talking about death and dying here, right? We’re hard-wired to avoid our own death with great and fervent effort (although exceptions situations do exist); there are some compellingly obvious Darwinian reasons why that would be so. But death itself is not a horrible outcome. It’s not an intrinsically awful fate or anything. Why the heck _wouldn’t_ a loving God allow innocent (and guilty) people to die? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/40 "2006-11-26T06:08:08Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] We’re hard-wired to avoid our own death with great and fervent effort (although exceptions situations do exist); there are some compellingly obvious Darwinian reasons why that would be so. But death itself is not a horrible outcome. It’s not an intrinsically awful fate or anything. Why the heck _wouldn’t_ a loving God allow innocent (and guilty) people to die? [/QUOTE] That’s a good point–but does he have to make it suck so much? I mean, if kids were completely immune to disease until they were five, if ebola and smallpox and the bubonic plague didn’t exist, if bone cancer were no more painful than freezing to death, would that really impact our free will or make the world a worse place? Darwin’s dictates and God’s obligations are not always compatible, IMO. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=3)