# How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755 "2006-11-25T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/41 "2006-11-26T06:35:20Z")
Well, yeah, if you want to ask a similar question about suffering. I’ve just never understood the perpetual emphasis on death. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/42 "2006-11-26T11:14:25Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] Well, yeah, if you want to ask a similar question about suffering. I’ve just never understood the perpetual emphasis on death. [/QUOTE] As an atheist I see death itself as simply oblivion, there may be suffering leading to it but once you´re dead there´s nothing else. However death hurts a lot, not to the stiff itself but to the people around it. A dead baby isn´t in pain or anguish, but his fathers surely are; a god that would use such things to teach a lesson would be like a father that breaks his son´s arm to teach him not to take cookies from the jar. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/43 "2006-11-26T11:32:30Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] , I would expect he would avoid doling out the goodies to people who rejected his commandments. Yet the evil often reap great earthly rewards inconsistent with their rejection of the almighty. Am I to believe that god bestows earthly rewards on the wicked, in the service of a greater good as well? . [/QUOTE] Ah you are blinded by the tawdry!Lets face it does wealth,fame,power and popularity REALLY bring you happiness?No amount of money can buy you a summers day or a beautiful sunset!He who has three friends is rich in deed! And if you believe that crock of shit then you deserve to be poor. If you await your reward in heaven and its not there then its a bit too late to complain isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/44 "2006-11-26T15:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] You seem stuck on this death thing. To us theists, death is just a move without all the boxes. The body dies. The soul does not. You see how that perspective changes things. You’re talking about oblivion. We see a change from one world to the next. [/QUOTE] Then why do you get so worked up over abortion? They’re just sending the living, breathing human being to heaven. It’s a good thing! And, since god has a plan for everything, that means it was god’s plan that the living, breathing human being be aborted. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/45 "2006-11-26T15:18:34Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] Well, yeah, if you want to ask a similar question about suffering. I’ve just never understood the perpetual emphasis on death. [/QUOTE] As you point out, we’re hardwired to have an extreme aversion to death, yet many of the ways we die leave us plenty of time to realize that our death is imminent and inevitable. When you’re created with a very strong desire that’s going to be inevitably thwarted, there’s some suffering inherent in that. Darwin’s explanation is fine: the universe doesn’t give a crap about your suffering. But as for God, I can’t help but think he could have designed our survival instinct with a little more finesse. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/46 "2006-11-26T15:38:21Z")
It’s a trick question, like “Are you still beating your wife?” Since God doesn’t exist, the question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/47 "2006-11-26T18:39:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Here the greatest evil in the history of mankind was preformed, diocide. Well, you have to admit it’s understandable. Lord knows I’ve wanted to beat **Dio** around the head and shoulders a time or two, although I can’t honestly say I’ve ever wanted to kill him. I mean, yeah, I guess it’s be pretty bad, but the greatest evil in the history of mankind? Naaaaaah. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/48 "2006-11-27T05:30:56Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Exactly. It is especially plenty if the suffering of \*another \*is intended to bring \*me \*into the fold. Screw that. [/QUOTE] It depends on your perspective. If you think in terms of eternity, temporal suffering is literally nothing compared to eternal suffering in hell. If you don’t believe in god and the eternal soul none of this will ever make much sense to you. If you do, you have to do a lot of thinking and praying to figure things out even a little bit but the very essence of true faith (IMHO) is that it is vulnerable to discreditation otherwise it is blind faith. Holding onto faith in the age of reason is about as easy as holding onto smoke but many people seem to be able to do it without engaging in a form of psychotic schizophrenia. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/49 "2006-11-27T07:28:19Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] Here the greatest evil in the history of mankind was preformed, diocide. Was there anyone more innocent than Jesus? Yet out of this great evil came the greatest good a loving God would ever give mankind ,eternal salvation. For all christians of the world this is our faith. [/QUOTE] So, wasn’t it planned that way from the beginning? If someone came back in a time machine, and rescued Jesus, all you Christians would be SOL, wouldn’t you? Jesus, if the story is true, was on the cross far shorter than the average criminal, and suffered less. Then he took a brief vacation, came back, did some tricks, and poof, was in heaven. I think a lot of people died in much worse circumstances from natural disasters that God, in your view, is directly responsible for. Christians made people suffer far worse than the Romans made your buddy suffer. Sorry, it don’t impress me much. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/50 "2006-11-27T11:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] So, wasn’t it planned that way from the beginning? If someone came back in a time machine, and rescued Jesus, all you Christians would be SOL, wouldn’t you? Jesus, if the story is true, was on the cross far shorter than the average criminal, and suffered less. Then he took a brief vacation, came back, did some tricks, and poof, was in heaven. I think a lot of people died in much worse circumstances from natural disasters that God, in your view, is directly responsible for. Christians made people suffer far worse than the Romans made your buddy suffer. Sorry, it don’t impress me much. [/QUOTE] Not to mention that a god that can be killed so easily by punny earthlings isn´t very impressive; but since Jesus suposedly resurrected then he wasn´t killed, so I don´t see any diocide. I never understood the line about the greatest sacrifice ever; for example, I´m sure most victims of the Inquisition had it worse (I take the cross to burning at the stake any day of the week), not to mention the fate of some christian saints, being fried alive gets a honorable mention. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/51 "2006-11-27T13:03:11Z")
As I understand it, the classic Christian take on death is not that it would not be part of a sinless world, but that the pain, horror, and fear, and grief, associated with it, would not be there. People would die – at a time and place where their will and God’s decide it to be appropriate – and they would die in the sure knowledge (not _belief_ in the everyday sense) of Paradise to follow; their loved ones would be in full acceptance of that passing, and at most feel a twinge of regret that they must finish out their own days without the physical presence of the dear departed, allayed by the knowledge of the joy he is now entering into and their happiness for him. This is a rather hard concept to grasp for most of us – it sounds like whistling in the dark, and it’s intended as no such thing – but perhaps two literary analogies may help one get a handle on it: Robert Louis Stevenson’s epitaph (often published as “L’Envoi”) and what is described about the deaths of the early kings of Numenor and of Aragorn in Tolkien’s writings. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/52 "2006-11-27T15:56:16Z")
> [@](#): > > How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? I don’t know, and neither does anyone else. But I do hope one day to ask and get an answer to this question! ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@johnny\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_M)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/53 "2006-11-27T16:47:25Z")
My original post was my opinion of course open to debate. Lets take a trip back and say we are living in the year 29 A.D. Whether you are a jew or gentile you have the beliefs that your ancestors have given to you. Now this guy comes along and says I am the truth the life and the way. Read John chapter 6! If you eat my body and drink my blood you will have eternal life. What would you think? I personally would think he was a nut what about you? Either this guy is the biggest nut to walk the earth or he is the son of God. If he is a liar then the world today has continued talking and worshiping a lie, if not he is the son of God. Someone posted a response saying her aunt was a nun and worked her whole life for God and suffered a horrible death through cancer. What did you think was going to happen to her? Did you beleive that she would live forever on this earth? She has now acheived her life long dream, unity with God forever. Did you get that FOREVER not just 50 to 100 years on this earth but FOREVER. Yes I!m sure you miss her and the love she gave you. I beleive that people closest to God have more hardship and suffering. Why I don!t no the ways of God does anyone? Just look at what he allowed to happen to his son and what about the horrible deaths of his disciples? You no what they say “no pain no gain no cross no crown”. Always open to debate!! yes poor grammer and bad spelling I do think its a clear message though. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/54 "2006-11-27T17:05:15Z")
So you seem to be answering your own question by saying that ‘a loving god allows innocent people to die so they may be closer to him’. But in your OP, you go on to say that “God allows evil to happen so a greater good can come out of it.” That inspired my question to you… > [@the PC apeman](#): > > **johnny M** , wouldn’t you agree that a god that could achieve his ends with any method but chooses to use evil, is partially evil? Or, are we to conclude that god is not capable of achieving his ends without evil? What do you say to this? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/55 "2006-11-27T17:07:07Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] Now this guy comes along and says I am the truth the life and the way. Read John chapter 6! If you eat my body and drink my blood you will have eternal life. What would you think? [/QUOTE] I’d think I’d need a nice cianti and some Fava beans. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/56 "2006-11-27T17:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Then why do you get so worked up over abortion? [/QUOTE] Abortion, hell - why do they get so worked up over _murder_? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/57 "2006-11-27T17:20:11Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] Either this guy is the biggest nut to walk the earth or he is the son of God. If he is a liar then the world today has continued talking and worshiping a lie [/QUOTE] You’ve got your CS Lewis theology a little confused - the “liar” and “lunatic” options are supposed to be two separate choices (the third being “lord”). And until you can actually demonstrate that Jesus even existed, and if he did, reliably demonstrate what he really said, I think it’s kind of pointless to pull out the “lord, lunatic, or liar” line of argument. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/58 "2006-11-27T17:35:25Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] My original post was my opinion of course open to debate. Lets take a trip back and say we are living in the year 29 A.D. Whether you are a jew or gentile you have the beliefs that your ancestors have given to you. Now this guy comes along and says I am the truth the life and the way. Read John chapter 6! If you eat my body and drink my blood you will have eternal life. What would you think? I personally would think he was a nut what about you? [/quote] What about the situation now makes you believe he wasn’t? I’m an atheist, but I imagine were I alive then i’d find it much easier to believe in him, given that I probably would trust the supernatural more. Plus, if the miracles attributed to him actually occurred, that’s much more impressive at the time then it is now, when we cannot be sure whether he performed them. So what is it about now that makes Jesus’s relationship with God plausible to you? > [@](#): > > Either this guy is the biggest nut to walk the earth or he is the son of God. If he is a liar then the world today has continued talking and worshiping a lie, if not he is the son of God. What, those are the only two options? I can think of more; he may have been an entirely fictional character. He may have honestly believed he was the son of God, but was mistaken. He was not the son of God and his claims to be were embellished by the writers of the Bible. He was the son of _a_ god, but that god was not the Christian God, and we just got confused. He was not the messiah, but was still a prophet, as Muslims believe. Hey, he might just have been high all the time. Damn long-haird hippies. > [@](#): > > Someone posted a response saying her aunt was a nun and worked her whole life for God and suffered a horrible death through cancer. What did you think was going to happen to her? Did you beleive that she would live forever on this earth? I can’t speak for that person, but I would imagine a suitable good thing to happen would be to die without going through the horrible suffering that is cancer and the attempts to combat it. Easily within God’s power. > [@](#): > > She has now acheived her life long dream, unity with God forever. Did you get that FOREVER not just 50 to 100 years on this earth but FOREVER. Your point being? She still went through unnecessary suffering. Do you deny it is within God’s power to cure her cancer, or to stop her having it in the first place? Do you deny that having cancer involves suffering? > [@](#): > > Yes I!m sure you miss her and the love she gave you. I beleive that people closest to God have more hardship and suffering. So God treats the people who worship and love him best horribly? Wow, there’s an inducement. > [@](#): > > Why I don!t no the ways of God does anyone? If you don’t know why he does the things he does, why the hell do you worship him? He might be doing it all for shits and giggles. > [@](#): > > Just look at what he allowed to happen to his son… _Made_ happen. God could have chosen not to allow it to happen. He did not. > [@](#): > > …and what about the horrible deaths of his disciples? This is a new one on me. Could \*\*Polycarp \*\* or some other knowledgable Christian talk about this? I didn’t know the disciples suffered horrible deaths. > [@](#): > > You no what they say “no pain no gain no cross no crown”. What, God doesn’t have it within his power to change that? I’m sure he at least has the power to come up with a second part that rhymes. > [@](#): > > Always open to debate!! yes poor grammer and bad spelling I do think its a clear message though. We are certainly receiving a message. I doubt it is the one you wish to send. But as much as I disagree with you, good luck anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/59 "2006-11-27T17:35:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Now this guy comes along and says I am the truth the life and the way. Read John chapter 6! If you eat my body and drink my blood you will have eternal life. What would you think? I would think "How in the world does this guy know about John chapter 6, when the book of John will not have been written for decades, and will not be divided up into chapters until hundreds of years after that? That’s what I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/60 "2006-11-27T17:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Who\_me?] I’d think I’d need a nice cianti and some Fava beans. 😉 [/QUOTE] Actually,we usually use a nice Sherry (and homebaked bread whenever possible), and save the beans for the church suppers. 😛 Poly (who used to be a Lector, reading the Scripture lessons aloud during service ;)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=4)