# How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755 "2006-11-25T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/101 "2006-11-28T23:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] And I _can_ answer these questions: there is definitely not an all-powerful, all-knowing God that considers reducing the suffering of most/all living humans to be a goal worth achieving. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe reducing human suffering is God’s goal. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/102 "2006-11-28T23:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] If we follow that line of reasoning, why wouldn’t God stop a heart attack from happening in the thirty year old professional athlete? Or perhaps alter that child who’s got Down’s Syndrome before they are born? Hell, if we are going that far, why doesn’t God nudge that pedestrian off the sidewalk before he becomes a victim of the drunk that just left the bar down the street? I can’t answer these questions. [/QUOTE] I can. I can give you four perfectly good reasons why God doesn’t do that: 1. He doesn’t exist. 2. He exists, but doesn’t care what happens to us. We’re not the point of his Creation, just some minor, unimportant side-effect of it. 3. He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but he can’t help us. He’s incapable of preventing suffering. 4. He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but won’t help us. He wants us to suffer because hates us and enjoys our pain. Which one best matches your God? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/103 "2006-11-28T23:36:55Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] I don’t believe reducing human suffering is God’s goal. [/QUOTE] Then why does he punish us if we create suffering in others? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/104 "2006-11-28T23:37:13Z")
1. He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but helping us with ‘minor’ mortal pain is in fact counterproductive to his overall goals. He allows us to suffer because assisting would have worse consequences in his opinion. Just to cover all the bases. ---
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/105 "2006-11-28T23:38:29Z")
God’s goal isn’t to maximize human happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/106 "2006-11-28T23:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I can. I can give you four perfectly good reasons why God doesn’t do that: 1. He doesn’t exist. 2. He exists, but doesn’t care what happens to us. We’re not the point of his Creation, just some minor, unimportant side-effect of it. 3. He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but he can’t help us. He’s incapable of preventing suffering. 4. He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but won’t help us. He wants us to suffer because hates us and enjoys our pain. Which one best matches your God? [/QUOTE] 1. Not this one. 2. Not this one. 3. Not this one. 4. Not this one. How about this one: He exists, and cares about what happens to us, and might help us even if we are unaware of it. He may or may not want us to suffer because of our condition and knows there is a reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/107 "2006-11-28T23:40:46Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] God’s goal isn’t to maximize human happiness. [/QUOTE] Why isn’t it? He claims to love us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/108 "2006-11-28T23:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] 5) He exists, and cares about what happens to us, but helping us with ‘minor’ mortal pain is in fact counterproductive to his overall goals. He allows us to suffer because assisting would have worse consequences in his opinion. Just to cover all the bases. [/QUOTE] Which is exactly what you’d expect God #4 to say! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/109 "2006-11-28T23:43:23Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Which is exactly what you’d expect God #4 to say! [/QUOTE] Aye, and anybody who says they’re not lying must be a liar lying about not lying. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/110 "2006-11-28T23:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Then why does he punish us if we create suffering in others? [/QUOTE] When a parent punishes their child, does the child believe he is suffering when he can’t go out and play with his friends? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/111 "2006-11-28T23:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] When a parent punishes their child, does the child believe he is suffering when he can’t go out and play with his friends? [/QUOTE] When a parent punishes a child, does he tell the child _why_ he’s being punished? The good ones do, at least. So where’s God’s explanation for cancer? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/112 "2006-11-28T23:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] When a parent punishes their child, does the child believe he is suffering when he can’t go out and play with his friends? [/QUOTE] Yes. What lesson does having cancer teach us, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/113 "2006-11-28T23:47:56Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] When a parent punishes a child, does he tell the child _why_ he’s being punished? The good ones do, at least. So where’s God’s explanation for cancer? [/QUOTE] Did the parent cause suffering in their child by punishing them? If so, I’ve brought suffering upon my daughter countless times. Does that mean I don’t love her? ---
**Author:** ![Endless\_Flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@Endless\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Endless_Flight)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/114 "2006-11-28T23:48:58Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Yes. What lesson does having cancer teach us, exactly? [/QUOTE] What lesson does having the common cold teach us? None of these are reasons for God not existing. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/115 "2006-11-28T23:52:16Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] What lesson does having the common cold teach us? None of these are reasons for God not existing. [/QUOTE] Certainly they are. They’re examples needless suffering. A vital component of God is that he is all-loving, and thus would want to spare us needless suffering, and that he is omnipotent, so he could spare us needless suffering. In addition, if he created the world and everything in it, then he created the common cold, and thus is the creator of the needless suffering himself. The common cold, and needless suffering, are certainly reasons for God not existing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/116 "2006-11-29T00:04:03Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] Did the parent cause suffering in their child by punishing them? If so, I’ve brought suffering upon my daughter countless times. Does that mean I don’t love her? [/QUOTE] That’s not the question I asked. Sure, you punish your daughter. If you catch her stealing candy at the store, you give her a spanking, and explain to her why she got her spanking: what she did wrong, and why it was wrong. So again, where is God’s explanation for cancer? If God lets us suffer because suffering is ultimatly good for us, what is this good that we are suffering for? _Why_ is it necessary that we suffer? How are we supposed to learn from the correction, if we are not told what we are being corrected for? > [@](#): > > None of these are reasons for God not existing. For God in general? No. For an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God? I think they’re pretty damned good reasons for not believing in that particular God. I don’t see anyway that God could have more than two of those characteristics at the same time, given the world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/117 "2006-11-29T00:09:34Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] God’s goal isn’t to maximize human happiness. [/quote] It would be if he were omnibenevolent. [QUOTE=Endless Flight] Did the parent cause suffering in their child by punishing them? If so, I’ve brought suffering upon my daughter countless times. Does that mean I don’t love her? [/QUOTE] It would if you could have achieved the your end without causing her suffering. (which you could do if you were omnipotent) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/118 "2006-11-29T00:15:26Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] For God in general? No. For an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God? I think they’re pretty damned good reasons for not believing in that particular God. I don’t see anyway that God could have more than two of those characteristics at the same time, given the world we live in. [/QUOTE] I beg to differ. All one needs to presume is that our time on earth is punishment for misdeeds in heaven. Or that earth is something persons in heaven do for fun, like some kind of massively-multiplayer videogame. (If you win at the final judgement, you get to enter your initials!) ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/119 "2006-11-29T00:25:47Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] I beg to differ. All one needs to presume is that our time on earth is punishment for misdeeds in heaven. … [/quote] How does that get around an all-loving god causing suffering? > [@](#): > > … Or that earth is something persons in heaven do for fun, like some kind of massively-multiplayer videogame. (If you win at the final judgement, you get to enter your initials!) This gave me a chuckle. I like it. But if we’re just avatars for heavenly gamers, then god _really_ doesn’t care about us avatars. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/120 "2006-11-29T00:33:05Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] How does that get around an all-loving god causing suffering? [/QUOTE] Because we needn’t assume that it feels like 80 years to the punished individual when they come out, and because it opens the possibility that, after the ‘spanking’, God then carefully explains to the troublesome person why their heavenly misdeed required punishment, and encourages them not to do it again. [QUOTE=the PC apeman] This gave me a chuckle. I like it. But if we’re just avatars for heavenly gamers, then god _really_ doesn’t care about us avatars. [/QUOTE] Oh, I dunno. I gather that persons can become quite attached to their gaming avatars in those sorts of games, and become quite aggrieved if they’re damaged in some non-recoverable way. “Aw, dangit! My dude had just leveled up to “almost self-supporting” with the “emotionally stable” bonus, and then got whacked by that darned Cancer event! That torques me off. I’m gonna ressurect him as an accountant this time and see if he can do better.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=7)