# How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755 "2006-11-25T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/141 "2006-11-29T13:56:01Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] Since we are looking at this from a human angle, tell me how love and it’s many intricacies equates with heavenly bliss. It hasn’t in my experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s not the greatest thing in the universe. [/quote] What’s your point? > [@](#): > > And the Christian God is not all-loving. I kept hearing that saying ‘God is Love’ all these years, and I always believed it was candy-coating his personality. Then why should we worship him? Thanks for the correction, **mr. jp**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/142 "2006-11-29T14:21:42Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] That doesn’t answer the question. First of all, why is the murder of Jesus the greatest evil ever? [/QUOTE] Right. If you believe the gospel of John, the crucifiction was a staged event and Jesus knew it. Salvation didn’t just come out of the crucifiction. Salvation was the reason for it. The implication is that God wanted some way to provide salvation and chose this method. Why? Who knows. The problem of evil is unanswerable, I think, if you postulate an all-powerful, all-knowing and benevolent God. The final answer always boils down to some version of God’s answer to Job. You don’t know enough to even ask why evil exists. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/143 "2006-11-29T14:53:00Z")
[QUOTE=Endless Flight] Since we are looking at this from a human angle, tell me how love and it’s many intricacies equates with heavenly bliss. It hasn’t in my experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s not the greatest thing in the universe. … [/quote] From what non-human angle are you able to say that? > [@](#): > > … > And the Christian God is not all-loving. I kept hearing that saying ‘God is Love’ all these years, and I always believed it was candy-coating his personality. Yes, that is one solution to the problem of evil: God is to some degree evil and/or indifferent. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/144 "2006-11-29T16:46:04Z")
The premise is off. A loving god sentences people to an eternity in hell for eating meat on Friday. A loving god wants people to worship him(her)(it). What an ego problem here. God can do anything yet watches war and starvation from a comfy seat . This can no way be loving. Petty and hateful would fit. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/145 "2006-11-29T16:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The premise is off. A loving god sentences people to an eternity in hell for eating meat on Friday. A loving god wants people to worship him(her)(it). What an ego problem here. God can do anything yet watches war and starvation from a comfy seat . This can no way be loving. Petty and hateful would fit. [/QUOTE] Well, it could also be that god is all-loving but not all-powerful. Perhaps he sees all our suffering but cannot prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@johnny\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_M)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/146 "2006-11-29T17:14:39Z")
I keep telling everyone that God allows a greater good to come out of evil. In the book of Isaiah chapter 53 he says the messiah will suffer. In the book of exodus chapter 11 God inflicted his last plague on egypt. This was called passover. The angel of death passed over Egypt and killed all first born of both Egypt and Israel. God however instructed Moses to put the blood of a lamb on the posts and lintels and the angel of death will pass over them. He obeyed and the next day Israel was free from 400 years of slavery. The evil on the night of passover had to be a horrible death to many. But a greater good did come out of it. The children of Israel once free disobeyed God again, and he punished them again. Exodus chapter 32. There are many more examples in the bible these were only 2. Someone then also asked was the killing of jesus worst then the holocaust? How many lives is diocide worth? Which holocaust are you refering to, Sudan today, the United states today, the soviet union in WWII or nazi germany in WWII. There where and are many more. The question asked was jesus chose the cross but people don!t choose to get cancer? Jesus didn!t choose the cross he chose to do his fathers will and so do you. I say our legacy is already written. Then someone will say then we don!t have free will. The answer is yes we do. This is a poor analogy but a simple one. I am God (not really) it is kentucky derby day and you are coming to my house to watch the race. You go to OTB bet the race and choose who you think will win. Reaching my home I turn on the race and we watch it. But little did you know, I already had the race on tape. You still had free will but I knew the outcome. I have a class now. 1230pm ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/147 "2006-11-29T17:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] I keep telling everyone that God allows a greater good to come out of evil. [/quote] First of all, there are things called paragraphs. You create one by hitting Return or Enter every so often. It might profit you to use them. Please let me know how children dying in the tsunami (to use an example that has nothing to do with human free will) profits anyone. > [@](#): > > This is a poor analogy but a simple one. I am God (not really) it is kentucky derby day and you are coming to my house to watch the race. You go to OTB bet the race and choose who you think will win. Reaching my home I turn on the race and we watch it. But little did you know, I already had the race on tape. You still had free will but I knew the outcome. I have a class now. 1230pm First of all, when I bet the outcome hadn’t been decided yet, (or OTB wouldn’t let me bet) so your example makes no sense. In any case, the free will problem has to do with god knowing what we choose. In your example you didn’t know how I bet - only how the race came out. So the analogy doesn’t work. How would it be if you knew how I’d bet before I bet? BTW, are you a student or a teacher. If you are a teacher, what do you teach? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/148 "2006-11-29T17:35:50Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] I keep telling everyone that God allows a greater good to come out of evil. [/quote] And we keep telling you that God could make that greater good happen without any evil at all. As an omnipotent being, it is within his power to do so. Thus, he must choose not to; and therefore he cannot be benevolent. Or, if he is benevolent, then he should want to bring good without the bad. Yet he doesn’t. Thus, it cannot be within his power, and therefore he’s not omnipotent. The two characteristics are incompatible with the nature of the universe. > [@](#): > > In the book of Isaiah chapter 53 he says the messiah will suffer. In the book of exodus chapter 11 God inflicted his last plague on egypt. This was called passover. The angel of death passed over Egypt and killed all first born of both Egypt and Israel. God however instructed Moses to put the blood of a lamb on the posts and lintels and the angel of death will pass over them. He obeyed and the next day Israel was free from 400 years of slavery. The evil on the night of passover had to be a horrible death to many. But a greater good did come out of it. First off, there’s both no historical evidence to say that occurred, and evidence to say it didn’t. Even if it had happened, it’s really not good evidence for God. Even\* I \* can think of a better plan; teleport all the Jewish slaves to somewhere else. No bloodshed, no evil, yet all the good that came of it - and an impressive miracle on par if not greater than the parting of the Red Sea to boot! If even I, a mere human, can think of a better plan than God’s, what does that say of his omniscience? > [@](#): > > The children of Israel once free disobeyed God again, and he punished them again. Exodus chapter 32. There are many more examples in the bible these were only 2. I am sure there are indeed many examples in the Bible of God causing suffering where none was necessary. > [@](#): > > Someone then also asked was the killing of jesus worst then the holocaust? How many lives is diocide worth? That’s an interesting question, actually. How many lives are worth three days of an avatar’s death? I honestly couldn’t say. > [@](#): > > Which holocaust are you refering to, Sudan today, the United states today, the soviet union in WWII or nazi germany in WWII. There where and are many more. The United States today? > [@](#): > > The question asked was jesus chose the cross but people don!t choose to get cancer? Jesus didn!t choose the cross he chose to do his fathers will and so do you. Er, that would be the same thing. He chose to do his father’s will _by_ choosing to willingly be crucified. Which was pretty odd of him, really… I’m very confused by the whole “he was both 100% man and god at the same time” argument, but surely he would have recognised that God could absolve the world’s sins without crucifying him? > [@](#): > > I say our legacy is already written. Then someone will say then we don!t have free will. The answer is yes we do. This is a poor analogy but a simple one. I am God (not really) it is kentucky derby day and you are coming to my house to watch the race. You go to OTB bet the race and choose who you think will win. Reaching my home I turn on the race and we watch it. But little did you know, I already had the race on tape. You still had free will but I knew the outcome. I know this argument, and i’ve used it myself. However, I don’t believe that we have free will in that all of our choices are affected entirely by our experiences and biology; I don’t believe there is any kind of decision-making process that’s not totally biased. Mines’s a minority view, though, so I won’t expect you to defend yourself on this to me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/149 "2006-11-29T18:33:05Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] In the book of exodus chapter 11 God inflicted his last plague on egypt. This was called passover. The angel of death passed over Egypt and killed all first born of both Egypt and Israel. [/QUOTE] Amazing. You cite this as an example of an evil out of which a greater good comes. I consider it such a monstrous evil that it resulted in my saying to Hell with it at a relatively you age. We came to the study of this story in Sunday school. First God hardens Pharaoh’s heart so that he doesn’t let the Israelites go. Then because Pharaoh won’t let the Israelites go, God kills all of the firstborn in Egypt. And they had absolutely nothing to do with the whole matter. Right then and there I decided I wanted nothing to do with such a God or with the philosophy that approved of God’s action in this matter. I haven’t found any reason to change in the intervening years. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/150 "2006-11-29T19:08:27Z")
And, by the way, you need to go back and read that part of Exodus again. God didn’t kill the first born of Israel. The point of the blood on the door was so that God would know that house was Israelite and He should pass it over and not kill there. And how come an omniscient God needed to be told which were Israelite homes? Doesn’t He know about and see every sparrow that falls in the field? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/151 "2006-11-29T19:19:25Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] That’s an interesting question, actually. How many lives are worth three days of an avatar’s death? I honestly couldn’t say. [/QUOTE] I can. Zero. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/152 "2006-11-29T19:59:52Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And, by the way, you need to go back and read that part of Exodus again. God didn’t kill the first born of Israel. The point of the blood on the door was so that God would know that house was Israelite and He should pass it over and not kill there. And how come an omniscient God needed to be told which were Israelite homes? Doesn’t He know about and see every sparrow that falls in the field? [/QUOTE] The God in the OT is very definitely not omniscient. There is even a passage where he tells the israelites to go to a battle, which they then lose. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/153 "2006-11-29T20:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And how come an omniscient God needed to be told which were Israelite homes? Doesn’t He know about and see every sparrow that falls in the field? [/QUOTE] If I recall correctly, this was supposed to symbolic of how God is going to slaughter all those who don’t take the stain of Jesus’s blood and death on themselves. It all comes down to blood and death with God, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@johnny\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_M)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/154 "2006-11-29T20:29:25Z")
To all the christians: WATCH WHAT YOU PRAY FOR. Someone asked jesus " lord how do we pray" , he replied (Matthew chapter6) OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME, YOUR KINGDOM COME, YOUR WILL BE DONE, WOW! WOW! WOW!.Lets stop right there, really? When I!m 45 I will get a heart attack “thy will be done"really? My 16 year old sister goes out on friday night with her friends and she is killed in a car accident"thy will be done” really? My son at the age of 5 has bone cancer “thy will be done” really? My spouse will go to work and jump out of her window on the 92nd floor today “thy will be done” really? We say it praying all the time but do we really mean it? As for life itself, every living thing of this earth shall pass. I do not know anyone who has died of nothing. There is always a cause of death involved. Alot of you keep coming back “why does God allow innocent people to die”? Read the three previous sentences again. Another class at 4pm … ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/155 "2006-11-29T21:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] To all the christians: WATCH WHAT YOU PRAY FOR. Someone asked jesus " lord how do we pray" , he replied (Matthew chapter6) OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME, YOUR KINGDOM COME, YOUR WILL BE DONE, WOW! WOW! WOW!.Lets stop right there, really? When I!m 45 I will get a heart attack “thy will be done"really? My 16 year old sister goes out on friday night with her friends and she is killed in a car accident"thy will be done” really? My son at the age of 5 has bone cancer “thy will be done” really? My spouse will go to work and jump out of her window on the 92nd floor today “thy will be done” really? We say it praying all the time but do we really mean it? As for life itself, every living thing of this earth shall pass. I do not know anyone who has died of nothing. There is always a cause of death involved. Alot of you keep coming back “why does God allow innocent people to die”? Read the three previous sentences again. Another class at 4pm … [/QUOTE] I… **totally** don’t get your point. This seems to have two halves to this post, the first of which seems to be implying that christians should be praying for people to die. Or are you scolding all those christians who are so rash as to _not_ thank God when hubby gets killed by a bus? I really can’t tell. The second part seems to be pointing out that obviously God _doesn’t_ protect anybody from anything, because there are natural causes of death that God didn’t supernaturally prevent. What side are you arguing for again? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/156 "2006-11-29T21:29:01Z")
**johnny M** , I have a question; you’ve talked about having students and going to classes. Are you a teacher? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/157 "2006-11-29T21:36:30Z")
I don’t think **Johnny M** is reading our posts. He seems to wait a bit, make another post, but I haven’t seen any direct response to any of our posts. **Johnny M** kindly prove you are reading our posts. Tell me the name of Batman’s sidekick. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/158 "2006-11-29T22:12:51Z")
Personally, I would no more ask “why does God allow innocent people to die?” than I would ask, “why are robots always stealing my luggage?” As far as I can tell, the OP himself posed this question to begin with. Was there some other thread where this question was asked that this thread is supposed to be a response to? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/159 "2006-11-29T22:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] Then someone will say then we don!t have free will. The answer is yes we do. This is a poor analogy but a simple one. I am God (not really) it is kentucky derby day and you are coming to my house to watch the race. You go to OTB bet the race and choose who you think will win. Reaching my home I turn on the race and we watch it. But little did you know, I already had the race on tape. You still had free will but I knew the outcome. I have a class now. 1230pm [/QUOTE] Thanks for clarifying that you’re not really God. Scared me for a second. So from your example, I gather that humans have free will, but horses don’t? Was that your point? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/160 "2006-11-29T22:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] If I recall correctly, this was supposed to symbolic of how God is going to slaughter all those who don’t take the stain of Jesus’s blood and death on themselves. [/QUOTE] I wonder if the Israelites understood that, being 1500 years before his birth and all… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=9)