# How Can A Loving God Allow Innocent People To Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755 "2006-11-25T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/161 "2006-11-29T23:06:33Z")
[QUOTE=johnny M] I keep telling everyone that God allows a greater good to come out of evil. [/quote] Yes, you keep telling us that. What we’re waiting for you to do is explain why it is necessary for there to be a great evil before there can be a great good. Why not just go straight to the great good? > [@](#): > > In the book of Isaiah chapter 53 he says the messiah will suffer. In the book of exodus chapter 11 God inflicted his last plague on egypt. This was called passover. The angel of death passed over Egypt and killed all first born of both Egypt and Israel. God however instructed Moses to put the blood of a lamb on the posts and lintels and the angel of death will pass over them. He obeyed and the next day Israel was free from 400 years of slavery. The evil on the night of passover had to be a horrible death to many. But a greater good did come out of it. The children of Israel once free disobeyed God again, and he punished them again. Exodus chapter 32. There are many more examples in the bible these were only 2. Yes, I think we’re all at least as familiar with the Bible as you are. These stories still do not explain anything. Why was it necessary for God to kill a bunch of innocent children in order to free the Israelis? Isn’t a big ol’ pile of dead babies a worse evil then a bunch of living, but enslaved babies? How is that a “greater good?” Isn’t it _only_ a greater good from the point of view of the Israelis? What about the greater good for the Egyptians? > [@](#): > > Someone then also asked was the killing of jesus worst then the holocaust? How many lives is diocide worth? None at all. The life of one God is no more or less valuable than the life of one human. Also, it’s “deicide,” not “diocide.” [This](http://www.creativeenergy.org/images/michaelangelo.jpg) is a deity. [This](http://www.orphaned-disciples.com/dio.jpg) is Dio. See the difference? > [@](#): > > Which holocaust are you refering to, Sudan today, the United states today, the soviet union in WWII or nazi germany in WWII. There where and are many more. Doesn’t matter, any one will do. Also, what holocaust is currently occuring in the US today? I don’t have cable anymore, so it’s been a while since I’ve watched CNN. Apparently, I missed something big in the news lately? > [@](#): > > The question asked was jesus chose the cross but people don!t choose to get cancer? Jesus didn!t choose the cross he chose to do his fathers will and so do you. And his father’s will was that he get nailed to a cross, so it’s petty semantics to say that he didn’t choose to get sacrificed. > [@](#): > > I say our legacy is already written. Then someone will say then we don!t have free will. The answer is yes we do. This is a poor analogy but a simple one. I am God (not really) it is kentucky derby day and you are coming to my house to watch the race. You go to OTB bet the race and choose who you think will win. Reaching my home I turn on the race and we watch it. But little did you know, I already had the race on tape. You still had free will but I knew the outcome. I have a class now. 1230pm And now you’ve reached heights of incoherence that we will not see again… until your next post. > [@](#): > > To all the christians: WATCH WHAT YOU PRAY FOR. Someone asked jesus " lord how do we pray" , he replied (Matthew chapter6) OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME, YOUR KINGDOM COME, YOUR WILL BE DONE, WOW! WOW! WOW!.Lets stop right there, really? When I!m 45 I will get a heart attack “thy will be done"really? My 16 year old sister goes out on friday night with her friends and she is killed in a car accident"thy will be done” really? My son at the age of 5 has bone cancer “thy will be done” really? My spouse will go to work and jump out of her window on the 92nd floor today “thy will be done” really? We say it praying all the time but do we really mean it? As for life itself, every living thing of this earth shall pass. I do not know anyone who has died of nothing. There is always a cause of death involved. Alot of you keep coming back “why does God allow innocent people to die”? Read the three previous sentences again. Another class at 4pm … There is no part of this paragraph that makes the least bit of sense. Are you really a teacher? What do you teach? Illiteracy? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/162 "2006-11-29T23:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] I wonder if the Israelites understood that, being 1500 years before his birth and all… [/QUOTE] They may not have got the memo. Alternatively, I’m perfectly willing to belive that the Christian (and/or Jewish) God is a bloodthirsty tribal diety who cares only about his tribe (followers) and distinguishes them from others by blood sacrifice…and who would cheerfully slaughter any who do not please him. Whichever. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/163 "2006-11-29T23:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Are you really a teacher? What do you teach? [/QUOTE] **Johnny M** only said he had classes. I’m guessing he’s a college student. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/164 "2006-11-29T23:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] **Johnny M** only said he had classes. I’m guessing he’s a college student. [/QUOTE] He has elsewhere refered to “his students,” but I don’t actually care enough to go looking for the precise post. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/165 "2006-11-30T00:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yes, you keep telling us that. What we’re waiting for you to do is explain why it is necessary for there to be a great evil before there can be a great good. Why not just go straight to the great good? [/QUOTE] Augustines answer was that if it weren’t for evil you wouldn’t recognize good as being good. I’ve never understood this. If the living is easy and all I have to do is reach out my hand for all the stuff I need why should I care that things could be worse? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/166 "2006-11-30T01:17:57Z")
I think “his students” may refer to people he talks to about religion. You know, like a preacher’s flock or whatever. And I would place decent odds on the genocide in the U.S. being a reference to the 35-40 or so million abortions that have been performed since _Roe._ Personally, I always found the entire Christ sacrifice mythos spectacularly bizarre – God sacrificed a temporal version of himself…to himself. To please…himself…for a punishment that he meted out ages ago on humanity, which in itself was pretty fucked up. Is there any stranger sacrifice story to be found among the world’s religions? And, of course, God thought that some random guy being crucified in some backwards part of Rome was going to be the clear sign to humanity about all this (since apparently his magic voodoo doesn’t work for you if you don’t believe it happened). I guess he was right in a sense there, since a lot of people seem to believe nowadays…still a lot of confused heathens hanging around though. That is just trippy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/167 "2006-11-30T02:56:34Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] Personally, I always found the entire Christ sacrifice mythos spectacularly bizarre – God sacrificed a temporal version of himself…to himself. To please…himself…for a punishment that he meted out ages ago on humanity, which in itself was pretty fucked up. Is there any stranger sacrifice story to be found among the world’s religions? [/QUOTE] Not to argue, but since you asked, I’d have to put Odin’s self-sacrifice one-up on the YHWH/Jesus one. I mean, he hung himself on a tree for nine days, and gouged out one of his eyes, and for what? To gain knowledge. Hey, he’s head of the gods – if he wants knowledge, all he has to do is command it! I will point out that there are other interpretations of the soteriological significance of the Crucifixion than the one you define here. But I’ve never been totally happy with any of them as explanation for why it happened, either. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/168 "2006-11-30T10:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Not to argue, but since you asked, I’d have to put Odin’s self-sacrifice one-up on the YHWH/Jesus one. I mean, he hung himself on a tree for nine days, and gouged out one of his eyes, and for what? To gain knowledge. Hey, he’s head of the gods – if he wants knowledge, all he has to do is command it! [/QUOTE] I don’t find this strange at all. He made the sacrifice to Mimir in Jötunheim, where he wasn’t the reigning power. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/169 "2006-11-30T12:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Not to argue, but since you asked, I’d have to put Odin’s self-sacrifice one-up on the YHWH/Jesus one. I mean, he hung himself on a tree for nine days, and gouged out one of his eyes, and for what? To gain knowledge. Hey, he’s head of the gods – if he wants knowledge, all he has to do is command it! [/quote] From what I understand Odin is neither omnipotent or omniscient…until after he drank from the well, which required the permission of its owner (Mimir) and a sacrifice. So now he’s omniscient but not omnipotent. I could be wrong, though. My question wasn’t necessarily rhetorical, either – I don’t fancy myself as some expert on religion, especially around here. If there’s a weirder story someone wants to point out I’m all ears. 😃 > [@](#): > > I will point out that there are other interpretations of the soteriological significance of the Crucifixion than the one you define here. But I’ve never been totally happy with any of them as explanation for why it happened, either. Yeah, I’ve read those 9 page topics. Fun times are to be had by all. If I were inclined to want to be a Christian without going a little crazy I’d stick with “God works in mysterious ways” and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/170 "2006-11-30T14:45:50Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] From what I understand Odin is neither omnipotent or omniscient…until after he drank from the well, which required the permission of its owner (Mimir) and a sacrifice. So now he’s omniscient but not omnipotent. [/QUOTE] You people and your christian view of norse mythology… After drinking from the well, Odin is wiser, but he is never omniscient. Norse mythology doesn’t have the audacity to think it can operate with omniscience and omnipotence without contradicting itself. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/171 "2006-11-30T15:07:24Z")
Just to continue this hijack, I too like Norse Mythology. The idea of gods that, at the end of the world, will fight - and die - along with the rest of us is an appealing one. And who could say no to carousing? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/172 "2006-11-30T16:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] You people and your christian view of norse mythology… After drinking from the well, Odin is wiser, but he is never omniscient. Norse mythology doesn’t have the audacity to think it can operate with omniscience and omnipotence without contradicting itself. [/QUOTE] Hey. If you Believe (with a capital B) there are no contradictions. How can mankind with his puny understanding possibly fathom the depths of an infinite mind? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Charger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df788c/32.png) [@Charger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charger)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/173 "2006-11-30T16:46:21Z")
In the words of the great Homer Simpson, “I’m normally not a praying man, but if you’re up there, please save me Superman!” The reason I bring this up is that people always confuse God with Superman. God used to be like Superman back in the days of Eden. Mankind had nothing to worry about because God provided food, protection, prevention of disease and famine, etc. As a result of living in paradise, mankind had no knowledge of evil. So mankind, of its own free will, sought knowledge of evil, even if it meant separation from SuperGod. And we humans got our wish. Now we manufacture our own evil and all the good and innocent people have to exist in a world where the filth of evil from everyone else stinks up the joint. Meanwhile, God maybe occasionally sends a little miracle now and then, but usually just sits back and says “How’s that Knowledge of Good and Evil working out for you, mankind?” ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/174 "2006-11-30T16:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Meanwhile, God maybe occasionally sends a little miracle now and then, but usually just sits back and says “How’s that Knowledge of Good and Evil working out for you, mankind?” 6,000 years and we’re still in the doghouse? **God** , get over it. Take a chill pill. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/175 "2006-11-30T17:09:04Z")
[QUOTE=Charger] Meanwhile, God maybe occasionally sends a little miracle now and then, but usually just sits back and says “How’s that Knowledge of Good and Evil working out for you, mankind?” [/QUOTE] Wow, what a snarky God. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/176 "2006-11-30T17:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=Charger] So mankind, of its own free will, sought knowledge of evil, even if it meant separation from SuperGod. And we humans got our wish. Now we manufacture our own evil and all the good and innocent people have to exist in a world where the filth of evil from everyone else stinks up the joint. Meanwhile, God maybe occasionally sends a little miracle now and then, but usually just sits back and says “How’s that Knowledge of Good and Evil working out for you, mankind?” [/QUOTE] Nobody asked me if I wanted knowledge of Good and Evil. Why should I suffer for somebody else’s choice? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/177 "2006-11-30T19:50:27Z")
If the OP really loved and cared about the rest of us, he’d learn where the apostrophe goes. ---
**Author:** ![Ruth\_Skidmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Ruth\_Skidmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruth_Skidmore)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/178 "2006-11-30T21:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] Not to mention that a god that can be killed so easily by punny earthlings isn´t very impressive; but since Jesus suposedly resurrected then he wasn´t killed, so I don´t see any diocide. I never understood the line about the greatest sacrifice ever; for example, I´m sure most victims of the Inquisition had it worse (I take the cross to burning at the stake any day of the week), not to mention the fate of some christian saints, being fried alive gets a honorable mention. [/QUOTE] HOw many of you who are posting about God, made your own decisions as to whether he exsists or not, think carefully please and how many was influenced by others, family members, teachers etc? This I know, this lifetime is just a flash of an eyelash and eternity is a long long time in comparsion! I will be in heaven, there is a God, he loves you just as much as he loves me, whether you believe in him or not! ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/179 "2006-11-30T21:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ruth Skidmore] HOw many of you who are posting about God, made your own decisions as to whether he exsists or not, think carefully please and how many was influenced by others, family members, teachers etc? This I know, this lifetime is just a flash of an eyelash and eternity is a long long time in comparsion! I will be in heaven, there is a God, he loves you just as much as he loves me, whether you believe in him or not! [/QUOTE] **Ruth** , welcome. Wouldn’t you say it’s easier to be a believer growing up in a society that promotes being a believer? I’m not sure where you’re going with your “making your own decisions” question. It sounds like you’re saying that recognizing and announcing ones atheism in the current religious environment must reflect more independent and critical thinking. And I certainly agree with you on the scale of time. I think most people here would too. But back to the topic, **Ruth** , in light of your faith how do you resolve the problem of evil? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755/180 "2006-11-30T21:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ruth Skidmore] HOw many of you who are posting about God, made your own decisions as to whether he exsists or not, think carefully please and how many was influenced by others, family members, teachers etc? [/quote] Are you asking the Christians, or the atheists? It strikes me as a much more relevant question for the believers than for the un-. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-allow-innocent-people-to-die/381755.md?page=10)