# How can a loving God let Johnny M post here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814 "2006-11-26T03:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/141 "2006-11-29T02:05:51Z")
A Shakespearean sonnet, addressed to **johnny M**. (Because, you know, I’m supposed to be studying Surrey and Wyatt tonight…) See God in divine glory, power revealed, Make the heavens and earth so perfectly fair; See him create the birds and beasts of the field, See him populate the teeming oceans and air. See him divide veils of darkness and bright sunlight; See him unfold flowers of water and land, See him spring forth, open wings and take flight, See him wobble forth on spindly legs and stand. See God invent humankind, curious conception: Complicated, compassionate, cruel and confounding; See him craft hands for work and eyes for perception— Laughter and tears in equal measure abounding. Amid this God a final gift and curse produces— Brains for us, one each, meant for regular uses. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/142 "2006-11-29T03:26:09Z")
I fon’t know about the rest of you, but I found **RT** ’s self-referential triolet and **Kythereia** ’s “Sonnet to Johnny M.” to be amazingly good pieces of work! 🙂 Thanks, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/143 "2006-11-29T09:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] What, we’re reduced to haiku? And not even properly constructed haiku, but 17-syllable remarks written in three lines with no attempt to fit the imagery criteria? Can’t someone do a sonnet or villanelle? A triolet? How about “Sestina of the Troll Royal”: "Speakin’ in general, I have read 'em all – Those incoherent trolls who write in rants… 😉 [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s about the only sestina I’ve ever read, too. But I’d need to spend serious time studying the rhyming pattern before I’d dare to give it a go. Even Kipling didn’t exactly rattle them off, y’know. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/144 "2006-11-29T13:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] What, we’re reduced to haiku? And not even properly constructed haiku, but 17-syllable remarks written in three lines with no attempt to fit the imagery criteria? Can’t someone do a sonnet or villanelle? A triolet? How about “Sestina of the Troll Royal”: "Speakin’ in general, I have read 'em all – Those incoherent trolls who write in rants… 😉 [/QUOTE] Im ignorant about this. How do you properly construct a haiku, and what are the imagery criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/145 "2006-11-29T14:06:31Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Im ignorant about this. How do you properly construct a haiku, and what are the imagery criteria? [/QUOTE] First line sets still scene. Mid line, poignant, moving thing. Last line unites them. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/146 "2006-11-29T14:15:16Z")
From perhaps God given minds insights come Which like His love need no further account But demonstration and true constancy; Knowledge of that love cannot be described Or passed to one in explicated bread. All can feast, but spoon feeding never works. And those who feast don’t need a Benefactor’s works Defined. The _love’s_ the thing –that constancy Of knowledge that entropy will not come Today while some One or one’s sums account Toward a divine or mundanely described Whole, which for some becomes our daily bread. To those who daily taste that love, such bread Means so much more than how it is described. And those with whom we share these leavened works Need not –should not- be held to _our_ account Or made to hear what we imagine comes From passing loaves He gives with constancy. What do I gain from miming constancy? -For that is what I do when I switch bread For some contrived pablum which only works To fill _my_ mind, but not to give account Of love, for which my neighbor surely comes To feel and know, and not to have described. I have been shown what cannot be described. Should I not then show that in turn, by works And not by words? Who would hear my account In favor of feasting? Whose constancy Then would be shared? From _showing_ that love comes The dogma you think is greater than bread. It is the act of giving all our bread To others, with no receipt or account Required from which our real salvation comes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/147 "2006-11-29T14:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] First line sets still scene. Mid line, poignant, moving thing. Last line unites them. [/QUOTE] Postmoderntastic! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/148 "2006-11-29T14:34:32Z")
If we keep this up, this may be the first thread ever moved from the Pit to Cafe Society on the basis of topical content! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/149 "2006-11-29T15:35:54Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] From perhaps God given minds insights come Which like His love need no further account But demonstration and true constancy; Knowledge of that love cannot be described Or passed to one in explicated bread. All can feast, but spoon feeding never works. And those who feast don’t need a Benefactor’s works Defined. The _love’s_ the thing –that constancy Of knowledge that entropy will not come Today while some One or one’s sums account Toward a divine or mundanely described Whole, which for some becomes our daily bread. To those who daily taste that love, such bread Means so much more than how it is described. And those with whom we share these leavened works Need not –should not- be held to _our_ account Or made to hear what we imagine comes From passing loaves He gives with constancy. What do I gain from miming constancy? -For that is what I do when I switch bread For some contrived pablum which only works To fill _my_ mind, but not to give account Of love, for which my neighbor surely comes To feel and know, and not to have described. I have been shown what cannot be described. Should I not then show that in turn, by works And not by words? Who would hear my account In favor of feasting? Whose constancy Then would be shared? From _showing_ that love comes The dogma you think is greater than bread. It is the act of giving all our bread To others, with no receipt or account Required from which our real salvation comes. [/QUOTE] Aw, you’re just showing off. 😉 I wonder, is this the first perfectly rendered sestina in a Piit thread? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/150 "2006-11-29T15:47:36Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] You have not been insulted, which is to say, you don’t feel that specific emotion. However, that does not make what I said not an insult. Your inability to comprehend what was said does not change the nature of what was said. Let me put it this way. If I insult you in Hungarian, and you don’t understand Hungarian, what have I just said to you? It’s not “just noise,” because I had a clear and specific meaning behind what I said. If it’s not an insult, what is it? [/QUOTE] It’s noise to me. Suppose you drove by my house and called me a dumbass in English, but I did not hear it. Was I insulted? > [@](#): > > Yes. I’ve been told how to perform a medical procedure. That I did not understand what I was told is a secondary issue. Not to the guy whose life was at stake. > [@](#): > > Sure it is. If I throw a punch at you, and you duck, I’ve still thrown a punch. That it didn’t connect does not change the intent behind my swinging my fist at you. This is exactly my point. To me, the difference between getting hit and not getting hit is huge. Your intent is meaningless. If you miss the punch, you may as well have been wiggling your ears, or doing a happy dance. It is only when the punch connects that I am affected. Conversely, if someone punches me by accident, with no intent to harm, it still feels the same. My jaw is still broken. \*\*hajaro \*\*is, to use an analogy, immune to insults. He’s bulletproof, like Superman. They have no effect. Insulting him is the same as not insulting him. How can a thing be an insult and not an insult at the same time? > [@](#): > > I think you’re confusing two seperate, but closely related, concepts: “insult” as a noun or verb, and “insult” as an adjective. If I say, “Fuck you,” that an insult (noun). I’m being insulting (verb). However, if you don’t understand me, or don’t care about me, you might not feel insulted (adjective). An insult (noun) is an attempt to change your internal state to insulted (adj). If I don’t achieve the adjective, that does not mean I did not employ the noun. I don’t think parts of speech matter. You cannot insult me if I refuse to take offense, regardless of your intent. A thing is only an insult to me if it insults me. Let’s say that you tell me the medical procedure in simple English, but I am somehow unable to grasp the concept. Have you explained anything to me? I say no. If I didn’t get it, no explanation occured. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/151 "2006-11-29T20:31:19Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] From perhaps God given minds insights come Which like His love need no further account But demonstration and true constancy; Knowledge of that love cannot be described Or passed to one in explicated bread. All can feast, but spoon feeding never works… [/QUOTE] A perfectly formed sestina? I think I’m a little in love with you now. _applause_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/152 "2006-11-29T22:41:57Z")
**Contrapuntal** , George W. Bush is a murdering, coked up, monkey-fucking asshole. Have I just insulted the president? If I have not, how would you describe the above sentence? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/153 "2006-11-29T23:12:46Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] **Contrapuntal** , George W. Bush is a murdering, coked up, monkey-fucking asshole. … how would you describe the above sentence? [/QUOTE] Too generous? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/154 "2006-11-29T23:50:15Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] **Contrapuntal** , George W. Bush is a murdering, coked up, monkey-fucking asshole. Have I just insulted the president? If I have not, how would you describe the above sentence? [/QUOTE] Unfair to the monkey. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/155 "2006-11-30T00:03:47Z")
Poor monkey gets Bushed Coked president does murders! An asshole - big time. [sub](There. That should make up for the too serious sestina. I started out trying to make it snarky, but what I really wanted to say just snuck up on me. Honest.)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/156 "2006-11-30T00:18:38Z")
I am just in awe! **Xeno** , I had no idea! ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/157 "2006-11-30T00:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] [sub](There. That should make up for the too serious sestina. I started out trying to make it snarky, but what I really wanted to say just snuck up on me. Honest.)[/sub] [/QUOTE] You mean to tell me you wrote that sestina just for this thread? Why, I oughta pit you just for that. It took me _ten years_ to write just one of those damned things. They always peter out by the third stanza. Nice work, **xeno** , and, er…fuck you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/158 "2006-11-30T00:52:11Z")
Don’t gimme a swelled head **Poly** and **koeeoaddi**. After **Revenant Threshold** ’s off-the-cuff tralala or whatever that was and **Kytheria** ’s sonnet the bar kinda got raised, any way. -I’m so glad we’re back to haikus and limericks. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/159 "2006-11-30T11:13:02Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] **Contrapuntal** , George W. Bush is a murdering, coked up, monkey-fucking asshole. Have I just insulted the president? If I have not, how would you describe the above sentence? [/QUOTE] Damnation by faint praise? OK. You have said something nasty about a pubic figure, and I could see one of his supporters consodering it to be an insult. It could also be thought of as an insult to the office of the presidency. It is a bit murkier to me whether Bush himself was insulted, if he is totally unaware of what you have said. Let me turn your question around. Suppose I pick a name out of a hat containing all the names in America, and come up with Melissa Gardber of Pocatello Idaho. Now I write your words on a piece of paper, substituting Ms. Gardber for Mr. Bush, and put it in my pocket. Have I insulted Melissa? What if I say them out loud before putting the paper away? Then was she insulted? Remember this exchange started because \*\*hajario \*\*claimed that I had insulted him, but he was not insulted. To me this is nonsense. One man’s insult might be another’s pillow talk. The only way it can be an insult is if he identifies it as an insult. It is nonsense to say “I was insulted but it didn’t insult me.” My comment also fails your “intent” test. It was not my intention to insult him. Nevertheless, he identified it as one. Yet was not insulted. It’s rabbit hole logic. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814/160 "2006-11-30T16:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Suppose I pick a name out of a hat containing all the names in America, and come up with Melissa Gardber of Pocatello Idaho. Now I write your words on a piece of paper, substituting Ms. Gardber for Mr. Bush, and put it in my pocket. Have I insulted Melissa? What if I say them out loud before putting the paper away? Then was she insulted? [/quote] By intentionally directing an _insult (NOUN)_ at Ms. Gardber through speech or script, you have _insulted (VERB)_ her. She has been _insulted (VERB)_ by you but as she is not aware of that fact, she cannot feel _insulted (ADVERB)_. > [@](#): > > Remember this exchange started because \*\*hajario \*\*claimed that I had insulted him, but he was not insulted. To me this is nonsense. One man’s insult might be another’s pillow talk. The only way it can be an insult is if he identifies it as an insult. It is nonsense to say “I was insulted but it didn’t insult me.” > > My comment also fails your “intent” test. It was not my intention to insult him. Nevertheless, he identified it as one. Yet was not insulted. It’s rabbit hole logic. It may be “sticks and stones” logic but it holds up internally. You claim you had no intent to insult **hajario** but your remark was insulting in and of itself and was perceived that way by its subject, so you did, in fact, insult him. He claims not to feel insulted, but he’s identified the remark as an insult. IOW, he sees the insult in being told he’s “not worth the time” to argue with, but he “doesn’t take it personally”, so he is not insulted by it. If a conservative poster tells me “ **xeno** , you’re nothing but a godless tax-and-spend liberal airhead” I certainly perceive an insult there, but understanding that this is a rhetorical label substituting for an argument, I can accept and even defend the truth value of “tax and spend liberal” while laughing off the rest of the remark as irrelevant noise. _I can refuse to be insulted._ Worked in kindergarten and still works on bigger playgrounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-loving-god-let-johnny-m-post-here/381814.md?page=9)