# How can a President of the United States obstruct justice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368 "2018-06-03T20:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/81 "2018-06-04T17:04:29Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Department of Justice determined in 1974 that Nixon could not pardon himself for Obstruction of Justice… It did? Can you link to something concerning that? I googled a bit but did not come up with anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/82 "2018-06-04T17:53:14Z")
[Here it is](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/olc/opinions/1974/08/31/op-olc-supp-v001-p0370_0.pdf). But it’s an opinion by a prosecutor, not a binding ruling such as SCOTUS or another court would issue. [Discussion here](https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/explaining-the-presidential-self-pardon-debate) - IOW it’s as unsettled a question now as it was in 1973. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/83 "2018-06-04T18:06:37Z")
Thanks. As noted in that memo, as long as the president can trust the VP, he can resign and then have the VP -\> P pardon him. That does contain some element of risk since the VP -\> P might suffer political consequences for such pardon. Personally, I would not be comfortable taking that risk, although I would hope I would not be in the position of having to do so in the first place. 🙂 Better to issue the self-pardon and take your chances. You can still possibly get the VP -\> P to pardon you if that fails. I get the bit about not being a judge in your case, and that makes sense. OTOH, it singles out the president as the only person in the country not eligible for a pardon. As was noted on one of the NPR shows this morning, when the Constitution was ratified there were only a few federal laws on the books anyway. Treason, Piracy and… something else. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/84 "2018-06-04T18:08:25Z")
If the POTUS cannot obstruct justice because he IS justice (that seems to be the argument that Trump’s lawyers are making), what prevents similar logic from proclaiming that he cannot subvert the Constitution and thus anything he does is now law and just peachy? “Elections are canceled; we don’t need 'em. It’s totally constitutional: I’m the POTUS and I say so.” ETA: I can’t believe we have a President who declared himself above the law today and people aren’t already scrambling to impeach him as unfit for the office _on that basis alone_. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/85 "2018-06-04T18:12:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OTOH, it singles out the president as the only person in the country not eligible for a pardon. Until one minute after he leaves office, voluntarily or not. That’s the other half of it - Congress has to fulfill its own responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/86 "2018-06-04T18:13:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So not the Constitution. And the DOJ wasn’t created until 1870, almost 100 years later. So, you’ll only accept something explicitly stated in the Constitution? That’s rather quaint. Add in the Declaration of Independence to what is in Constitution and it’s rather clear they had a dim view of the idea the chief executive could not, by definition, obstruct justice. Actually, it’s rather explicitly stated they thought the Crown did that very thing in the Declaration of Independence and that such acts were of sufficient import (among other reasons) to revolt. It goes beyond reason to presume they would turn around and consider such acts hunky-dory almost immediately after. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/87 "2018-06-04T18:15:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If the POTUS cannot obstruct justice because he IS justice (that seems to be the argument that Trump’s lawyers are making), what prevents similar logic from proclaiming that he cannot subvert the Constitution and thus anything he does is now law and just peachy? Former President Obama set the precedent. Remember the phone and the pen? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/88 "2018-06-04T18:17:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Remember the phone and the pen? Not as well as you do, apparently. Please specify. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/89 "2018-06-04T18:24:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That is my point. \*\* It is an assumption that Trump is using it for an improper end or a nefarious goal.\*\* If Congress can prove that, then Trump can be impeached and removed from office. My problem is that we are just assuming the condition precedent without evidence and arguing that the executive powers should be curtailed because of it. If the president is firing people simply because he doesn’t want one of his guys investigated for a crime, I would prefer that the onus be on him to show that he’s not being nefarious or improper. If a cop tries to arrest me for a crime that I absolutely know that I didn’t commit, I’m still expected to submit to the authorities and let the system work as intended. Why is this “unjustice” okay but when it’s the president’s buddies, it’s suddenly not okay? The everyday man is told to have faith in the system and that the truth will prevail in the end. This same expectation should extend to the president. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/90 "2018-06-04T18:29:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not as well as you do, apparently. Please specify. > **[CBS News - Breaking news, 24/7 live streaming news & top stories](https://www.cbsnews.com/)** > > Watch CBS News live and get the latest, breaking news headlines of the day for national news and world news today. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/91 "2018-06-04T18:33:17Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > [CBS News - Breaking news, 24/7 live streaming news & top stories](http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/01/14/obama-on-executive-actions-ive-got-a-pen-and-ive-got-a-phone/) O.k., I read it. How does it apply to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/92 "2018-06-04T18:51:30Z")
I truly do hope the answer is not just more tawdry IOKIARDI. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/93 "2018-06-04T20:16:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > O.k., I read it. How does it apply to this thread? Former President Obama said (paraphrasing) that he didn’t need legislation to enact laws, when a president, any president, most certainly does. The SCOTUS shot him down more than a few times. See the NLRB decision, 9-0. And DAPA. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/94 "2018-06-04T20:19:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If the POTUS cannot obstruct justice because he IS justice (that seems to be the argument that Trump’s lawyers are making), what prevents similar logic from proclaiming that he cannot subvert the Constitution and thus anything he does is now law and just peachy? > > “Elections are canceled; we don’t need 'em. It’s totally constitutional: I’m the POTUS and I say so.” > > ETA: I can’t believe we have a President who declared himself above the law today and people aren’t already scrambling to impeach him as unfit for the office _on that basis alone_. Those are really just straw man arguments. 1. No one is saying that the president IS justice. The argument is that the president has the authority, given to him by the Constitution, to staff the executive branch. Congress has some say in the hiring but not in the firing. A statute, like the one concerning Obstruction of Justice, cannot override the constitution, so the president can fire whomever he wishes and can’t be held criminally liable for that. Similarly, the president is the constitutionally appointed head of the Justice Department, and as such cannot be constrained by law to operate that Department in a certain way. Congress can try to constrain the president, via the power of the purse, but they cannot pass a law that constrains him from his constitutionally granted authority. Ultimately, though, if Congress thinks things have gone too far, for whatever reason, they can impeach the president and remove him from office. That is one constraint that Congress has over the president that affects everything a president might do. 1. Note that the items in #1 would apply only to those powers granted the president in the constitution. Much of the constitution is about granting powers to the other branches of government, and in those case the president is constrained. The president can’t tell the Senate which rules it must operate under, to take one example. 2. There are no federal elections in the US and the executive of the federal government plays no role in the elections we do have. Elections are run by the states, so there is no reason to think that the constitution gives the president the authority to cancel them. Whether you agree with the arguments in #1 above or not, there is no reason to claim that they imply that the president can do whatever he wishes to the constitution, or that he can cancel elections. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/95 "2018-06-04T20:20:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > O.k., I read it. How does it apply to this thread? I think it goes like this: SDMB Reality Caucus: “OMG! Trump just shot and killed James Comey in the middle of Fifth Avenue! What the hell is going on?!?!” **D’Anconia** : “Have you forgotten that Obama once wore a tan suit to a press conference??” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/96 "2018-06-04T20:23:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Former President Obama said (paraphrasing) that he didn’t need legislation to enact laws, when a president, any president, most certainly does. I bet you I can “paraphrase” Trump to establish that he likes having sex with his daughter, and have that paraphrase be more accurate than what you posted here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/97 "2018-06-04T20:23:19Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Former President Obama set the precedent. Remember the phone and the pen? Obama was hardly the first president to use executive orders to implement policy. Not that it has anything to do with obstruction of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/98 "2018-06-04T20:23:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Former President Obama said (paraphrasing)… And what did he say _before_ your “paraphrasing”? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/99 "2018-06-04T20:25:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Former President Obama said (paraphrasing) that he didn’t need legislation to enact laws, when a president, any president, most certainly does. > > The SCOTUS shot him down more than a few times. > > See the NLRB decision, 9-0. And DAPA. Obstruction of justice doesn’t mean whatever you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/100 "2018-06-04T20:30:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what did he say _before_ your “paraphrasing”? > [@](#): > > “We’re not just going to be waiting for legislation in order to make sure that we’re providing Americans the kind of help they need. I’ve got a pen and I’ve got a phone,” Obama said Tuesday as he convened his first Cabinet meeting of the year. That’s the role of the President. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368.md?page=6)