# How can a President of the United States obstruct justice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368 "2018-06-03T20:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/101 "2018-06-04T20:32:32Z")
> [@Obama](#): > > One of the things that I’m going to be talking to my Cabinet about is how do we use all the tools available to us, not just legislation, in order to advance a mission that I think unifies all Americans. Not “executive orders INSTEAD of legislation.” Which still has fuck-all to do with obstruction of justice. But it does have a LOT to do with Barack HUSSEIN O’bummer once wearing a tan suit. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/102 "2018-06-04T21:04:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s the role of the President. Missed edit window. That’s NOT the role of the President. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/103 "2018-06-04T21:06:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Not “executive orders INSTEAD of legislation.” > > Which still has fuck-all to do with obstruction of justice. If one President places himself above, or at least outside, of the Constitution, what’s to stop subsequent Presidents? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/104 "2018-06-04T21:09:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If one President places himself above, or at least outside, of the Constitution, what’s to stop subsequent Presidents? the impeachment process, elections, and the final Bastion of Democracy, Saturday Night Live (which was way funnier in the 70s, but still…) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/105 "2018-06-04T21:10:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If one President places himself above, or at least outside, of the Constitution, what’s to stop subsequent Presidents? When it comes to “paraphrasing” the words of others, you’re just not very good at it, are you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/106 "2018-06-04T21:11:29Z")
Is there any president who didn’t issue Executive Orders? Certainly not in the modern era. And that’s one thing about Presidents. They are not known for advocating limits on their constitutional authority. Discounting what Trump has to say on the self-pardoning issue (because, well, Trump), I would not be surprised if any president claimed the authority to pardon himself. It’s what they do-- claim to have broad, constitutional powers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/107 "2018-06-04T21:14:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Those are really just straw man arguments. > > 1. No one is saying that the president IS justice. The argument is that the president has the authority, given to him by the Constitution, to staff the executive branch. Congress has some say in the hiring but not in the firing. A statute, like the one concerning Obstruction of Justice, cannot override the constitution, so the president can fire whomever he wishes and can’t be held criminally liable for that. I suggest you read the letter from Trump’s lawyers again, particularly this part (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > It remains our position that the President’s actions here, by virtue of his position as the chief law enforcement officer, could neither constitutionally nor legally constitute obstruction **because that would amount to him obstructing himself** , and that he could, if he wished, terminate the inquiry, or even exercise his power to pardon if he so desired. The exact argument that they are making is that POTUS = Justice and so Trump cannot subvert Justice. It’s right there in clear language. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/108 "2018-06-04T21:17:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any president who didn’t issue Executive Orders? Certainly not in the modern era. The one exception is not a surprising one: William Harrison did not issue any executive orders during his thirty-one days in office. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/109 "2018-06-04T21:17:17Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Former President Obama set the precedent. Remember the phone and the pen? No, I don’t. Why don’t you lay out the situation and the argument; I’d find it helpful. Also, is this something that the GOP was onboard with when Obama was President? They supported this phone-and-pen thing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/110 "2018-06-04T21:22:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I suggest you read the letter from Trump’s lawyers again, particularly this part (bolding mine):The exact argument that they are making is that POTUS = Justice and so Trump cannot subvert Justice. It’s right there in clear language. No. It means POTUS = The Head of the Justice Department. He cannot obstruct the workings of that department since he runs the damn thing. Also, note that the word “subvert” is not in your quote. If you’re going to harp on clear language, best not to change it. In fact, the word “Justice” is not in your quote, but I’ll give you that one because “obstruction” is meant to mean “Obstruction of Justice”. But by the same token, you can’t pluck “Justice” out of that because “Obstruction of Justice” is a term of art which refers to breaking a specific statute, not some generic raping of the blindfolded lady herself. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/111 "2018-06-04T21:40:42Z")
The scary thing from my point of view is in November when we get a chance to discover whether Trump decides to use his pardoning power to make it so that Republicans can safely ignore all federal election law. I don’t see Congress punishing him for helping to keep them in power. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/112 "2018-06-04T22:09:01Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The scary thing from my point of view is in November when we get a chance to discover whether Trump decides to use his pardoning power to make it so that Republicans can safely ignore all federal election law. I don’t see Congress punishing him for helping to keep them in power. At some point, it falls back on the American people. If they are willing to put up with that, then they (we) get the government we deserve. But in all honesty I think you’re headed towards “What if Trump declares himself dictator for life?” territory if you’re going to worry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/113 "2018-06-04T22:13:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At some point, it falls back on the American people. If they are willing to put up with that, then they (we) get the government we deserve. But in all honesty I think you’re headed towards “What if Trump declares himself dictator for life?” territory if you’re going to worry about that. But he “knows” they are all innocent so it’s just a waste to try to investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/114 "2018-06-05T00:27:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If one President places himself above, or at least outside, of the Constitution, what’s to stop subsequent Presidents? This is the problem with Trump. Glad we finally found common ground. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/115 "2018-06-05T00:32:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is the problem with Trump. Glad we finally found common ground. Do you not agree that Obama did unconstitutional things? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/116 "2018-06-05T11:59:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you not agree that Obama did unconstitutional things? Such as…? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/117 "2018-06-05T12:20:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Such as…? His appointment to the NLRB, which was overruled 9-0. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/118 "2018-06-05T13:52:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you not agree that Obama did unconstitutional things? Name a President who didn’t lose a case in the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/119 "2018-06-05T14:22:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Name a President who didn’t lose a case in the Supreme Court. William Henry Harrison. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368/120 "2018-06-05T14:25:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > William Henry Harrison. I am beginning to hate William Henry Harrison-his existence fucks up just about every question asked about U.S. Presidents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-a-president-of-the-united-states-obstruct-justice/815368.md?page=7)