# How can anyone defend closing of private property on Federal land? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 6, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534 "2013-10-06T22:26:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JustBecause14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@JustBecause14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustBecause14)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/1 "2013-10-06T22:26:18Z")
Re: the shutdown. In particular, I am wondering what point it serves to close hotels/restaurants (Blue Ridge Inn) & force people from their private homes (Lake Meade). Isn’t this just the Feds being a bunch of bullies just because they can? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/2 "2013-10-06T22:37:33Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Re: the shutdown. In particular, I am wondering what point it serves to close hotels/restaurants (Blue Ridge Inn) & force people from their\*\* private homes\*\* (Lake Meade). Isn’t this just the Feds being a bunch of bullies just because they can? [Vacation homes.](http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/226557661.html) > [@](#): > > The Lake Mead properties are considered vacation homes; one of the lease requirements to own a plot is people must have an alternative residence. They are located on federal land. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/3 "2013-10-06T22:48:08Z")
No, It’s just a by-product of the shutdown. Do you feel there is something unusual or inappropriate about the situations you cite? Crane ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/4 "2013-10-06T23:33:32Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Re: the shutdown. In particular, I am wondering what point it serves to close hotels/restaurants (Blue Ridge Inn) & force people from their private homes (Lake Meade). Two different issues here – one, the hotels/restaurants, was addressed in a different thread: > [@WWII Memorial shutdown controversy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/53): > > Four, as for privately run campgrounds being closed. Those campgrounds are concessions within the park boundaries - just like **many restaurants, hotels, shops, and recreational vendors**. **Their contract clearly states that when the park is closed, they need to close**. If you think about it, it would be ridiculous to close the park, but then allow people in to camp there. A similar situation would an individual store owner within a mall - if the mall rules are we close at 10PM, then you need to close at 10PM. Sucks for the campground owners, but they signed the contract. Also, yes a small piece of the money earned by those concessions does go to the government, and we appreciate it - but those feed don’t come anywhere close to covering the costs of running a park. (bolding mine) No controversy there IMO.\*\* They signed a contract saying they have no entitlement to operate when the park does not.\*\* End of story. No sympathy. As for residences, there’s that line in the above-linked report: > [@](#): > > **The Lake Mead properties are considered vacation homes** ; one of the lease requirements to own a plot is people must have an alternative residence. (Bolding mine, again.) IOW this cabin\*\* is NOT supposed to be the person’s sole or primary homestead.\*\* We would have to read the master deed to see what restrictions and requirements were explicitly placed on the lease, and if the Park Service may have been derelict in not enforcing that clause and allowing it to become a place of permanent domicile and therefore negligently created an embarrassment for themselves and a hardship for the tenants. IIRC in cases where someone owns a cabin but not the land it sits on, they usually can expect to have the status of tenants and be entitled to an easement to access the housing. But people may become misled by how, especially out West, a lot of homes and businesses are on generic Bureau of Land Management lands, which means federal property that the government leases or franchises to those who would occupy or use the land for authorized purposes and to which the rights commonly accruing a lessor or tenant apply. And that is \*\*different \*\*from land that is actual part of an operating federal installation, such as a National Park, Forest, Monument, or Recreation Area, which can be closed and have access denied. Those displaced persons in Nevada may have mistakenly believed their lots’ status was the former, or thought “oh, no way they could close all this desert, they’ll just shut down their actual facilities but leave the accesses alone”. > [@](#): > > Isn’t this just the Feds being a bunch of bullies just because they can? No, it’s “a shutdown of nonessential government activities” which includes the Parks and that means **the Parks,** all they contain, not just the Visitor Center office. And hey, nobody gets fired for obeying the letter of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/5 "2013-10-07T00:26:17Z")
Ask the House Republicans to defend it; they’re the ones who did it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/6 "2013-10-07T16:40:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ask the House Republicans to defend it; they’re the ones who did it. The “conservative” viewpoint seems to be “The House shut down the government on righteous principles over the tyrannical healthcare law, but anything in the shutdown that inconveniences someone is the Obama administration spitefully making sure the pain is felt by the common man.” It’s the rankest bullshit, of course, but that’s never stopped the deluded grifting victims before. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/7 "2013-10-07T16:56:51Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The “conservative” viewpoint seems to be “The House shut down the government on righteous principles over the tyrannical healthcare law, but anything in the shutdown that inconveniences someone is the Obama administration spitefully making sure the pain is felt by the common man.” > > It’s the rankest bullshit, of course, but that’s never stopped the deluded grifting victims before. Be fair, now. Only **some** of them are victims. The rest are grifters. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/8 "2013-10-07T17:35:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Private property on Federal land Isn’t that an oxymoron? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/9 "2013-10-07T17:43:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Isn’t that an oxymoron? I think they own the house but lease the ground it’s on. My wife and I live in a senior park. We own the mobile home but pay rent on the space. ---
**Author:** ![JustBecause14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@JustBecause14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustBecause14)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/10 "2013-10-07T20:43:34Z")
Closing an inn, forcing people out of their homes, blocking scenic views of parks, not allowing football games to be broadcast to our troops overseas-- these are things that seem to be done solely for the purpose of “punishment.” Does no one see this? Really? The government has been shut down before, it was shut down for 3 weeks in the 90’s. None of these things happened. Why now? Hold Congress’ pay for example. Anyone on board with that? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/11 "2013-10-07T20:48:57Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Closing an inn, forcing people out of their homes, blocking scenic views of parks, not allowing football games to be broadcast to our troops overseas-- these are things that seem to be done solely for the purpose of “punishment.” Does no one see this? Really? The government has been shut down before, it was shut down for 3 weeks in the 90’s. None of these things happened. Why now? Hold Congress’ pay for example. Anyone on board with that? It seems like you think that when the government shuts down, it should also continue to operate normally. I can’t imagine how that is supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/12 "2013-10-07T20:59:44Z")
They’re getting a little overzealous… [http://now.msn.com/national-park-service-police-try-to-close-privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown](http://now.msn.com/national-park-service-police-try-to-close-privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown) ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/13 "2013-10-07T21:32:49Z")
> [@bump](#): > > They’re getting a little overzealous… > > [http://now.msn.com/national-park-service-police-try-to-close-privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown](http://now.msn.com/national-park-service-police-try-to-close-privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown) I was just there Friday. The problem, as explained to me by one of the Mt Vernon workers, was that there is an easement of Fed Land that is maintained by the Park service that is surrounded by the Mt Vernon parking lots. It’s kind of a circular area. After chatting with the Park service Mt Vernon agreed to perform the necessary maintenance of the Fed area until the budget is passed and then maintenance will again be done by the Feds. Mt Vernon was NOT shut down. During the interim the employees parked in a field owned by the estate and tourists parked in the employee parking lot, which was not impacted by the Fed easement. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/14 "2013-10-07T21:40:27Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Hold Congress’ pay for example. Anyone on board with that? Might make it easier to bribe congress if we didn’t pay them, so No. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/15 "2013-10-07T21:54:31Z")
The shutdown is like the sequester on steroids. And the sequester was basically the embodiment of incompetent governance - it was designed that way. If the Republicans wanted the shutdown to run smoothly or the way they would have liked it, they should have held hearings to make it so. Obtain expert opinion. Frankly, off the top of my head it seems perfectly reasonable to lock the shopping mall when you lack the staff to secure it. Same for national parks. Meanwhile, NASA and the NIH have furloughed 90%+ of their employees. [Antarctica research](http://www.livescience.com/40237-antarctic-research-government-shutdown.html) is trending fubar. Economic data isn’t being gathered in the aftermath of the worst financial crisis since WWII. I’d say that we have bigger fish to fry, ones having a great deal more to do with national strength and health. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/16 "2013-10-07T22:04:33Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Closing an inn, forcing people out of their homes, blocking scenic views of parks, not allowing football games to be broadcast to our troops overseas-- these are things that seem to be done solely for the purpose of “punishment.” Does no one see this? Really? The government has been shut down before, it was shut down for 3 weeks in the 90’s. None of these things happened. No, these things happened in the 90s as well. The Republicans are just “forgetting” that the monuments, etc., were closed then too. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/17 "2013-10-07T22:33:57Z")
> [@JustBecause14](#): > > Hold Congress’ pay for example. Anyone on board with that? 535 people making $245,000 each is a little over $130 million a year. The 2013 budget for the National Park Service was around $2.6 billion. You’re still $2.5 billion short. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/18 "2013-10-07T22:42:20Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > It seems like you think that when the government shuts down, it should also continue to operate normally. I can’t imagine how that is supposed to work. The thinking is: “They’re just supposed to shut down the “wasteful” stuff that I don’t need, but leave the stuff that I like and approve of alone.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/19 "2013-10-07T22:55:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, these things happened in the 90s as well. The Republicans are just “forgetting” that the monuments, etc., were closed then too. Cite? I visited the Vietnam Wall during the Clinton/Gingrich shutdown; no barriers, either there or across the street at the Lincoln Memorial. (Granted, I didn’t walk across the street, but i could see it perfectly). So I’m going to call bullshit on that claim. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534/20 "2013-10-07T23:09:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? > > I visited the Vietnam Wall during the Clinton/Gingrich shutdown; no barriers, either there or across the street at the Lincoln Memorial. (Granted, I didn’t walk across the street, but i could see it perfectly). > > So I’m going to call bullshit on that claim. Here’s the Lincoln Memorial during the 1995 shut down: [http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130919132640-01-government-shutdown-1995-horizontal-gallery.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/01/politics/different-government-shutdowns/&h=360&w=640&sz=69&tbnid=aycLGzsoqsHw1M:&tbnh=99&tbnw=176&zoom=1&usg=\_\_7jo31CHl-LBzrj8MI-Od8m7zaDs=&docid=JQuj3TmwewnFbM&sa=X&ei=zT5TUsi1Cer64AOi8oGICQ&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAA](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130919132640-01-government-shutdown-1995-horizontal-gallery.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/01/politics/different-government-shutdowns/&h=360&w=640&sz=69&tbnid=aycLGzsoqsHw1M:&tbnh=99&tbnw=176&zoom=1&usg=__7jo31CHl-LBzrj8MI-Od8m7zaDs=&docid=JQuj3TmwewnFbM&sa=X&ei=zT5TUsi1Cer64AOi8oGICQ&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAA) You could have googled it yourself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-defend-closing-of-private-property-on-federal-land/670534.md?page=2)