# How can anyone justify belief in God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285 "2002-03-27T00:54:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/301 "2002-04-11T17:15:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\* > no, the bible is religion… not all religion, but religion none the less… I could base my attacks on the Qur’an if you would like, of the black sea scroles, or posibly on some ancient greek gods, or even on cave paintings if that would help you… \*\* So you think you can sufficiently attack religion in general by attacking the Bible, even though most religions don’t adhere to its tenets? Can you not see the logical error in that approach? (Never mind that the Biblical texts you cited don’t actually support your case…) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/302 "2002-04-11T17:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\*I apologise for seeming to suport god as haveing siblings, I simply wished to put forth the posobility of more than one god… It is simply hard for Me to believe that there is only one… prehaps there is… but perhaps there isn’t… \*\* No, you said quite a bit more than that. You didn’t merely ask, “If God exists, might he not have siblings?” Rather, your exact words were: “if there was a higher power, whould he not have brothers, or sisters?” (sic) … and then proceeded to dismiss monotheism as being implausible. Your phrasing very specifically states that God **would** have siblings, if he does exist. No amount of backpedalling can change that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Ipse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@Ipse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ipse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/303 "2002-04-11T17:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > No amount of backpedalling can change that fact. \*\* no apearantly not, it seems I did insunuate that god would have siblings… I apologise… ---
**Author:** ![Ipse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@Ipse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ipse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/304 "2002-04-11T17:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > So you think you can sufficiently attack religion in general by attacking the Bible, even though most religions don’t adhere to its tenets? > > Can you not see the logical error in that approach? (Never mind that the Biblical texts you cited don’t actually support your case…) \*\* again, would you rather that I attack the Qur’an? there are more who follow that after all… or perhaps gospel or scripture in general… these to were the work of human hands… ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/305 "2002-04-11T18:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\*no apearantly not, it seems I did insunuate that god would have siblings… I apologise… \*\* Y’know, I was just about to point out that you had earlier said, “If there is one, is it not a safe assumption that there is more?” On the one hand, I’m glad that you now acknowledge what you had said earlier. On the other hand, I’m perplexed by the fact that you don’t seem to know the things you said earlier – what you had phrased in multiple ways, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/306 "2002-04-11T18:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\* > again, would you rather that I attack the Qur’an? \*\* Obviously a false dilemma. I’m not suggesting that if you don’t attack the Bible, then you should attack the Qur’an instead. Rather, if you’re going to dismiss theism, you should address theism itself, rather than just a few specific religious beliefs. It is the height of intellectual dishonest to attack the Bible or the Qur’an, and then pretend that this invalidates theism as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Newton\_meter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/57b2e6/32.png) [@Newton\_meter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Newton_meter)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/307 "2002-04-11T18:11:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ipse_ > \*\*again, would you rather that I attack the Qur’an? there are more who follow that after all… or perhaps gospel or scripture in general… these to were the work of human hands… \*\* Since you ask, I would rather you not _attack_ anything. The problem with your tack, **Ipse** is that theists usually don’t believe in gods in general, they believe in a _particular_ god. When you’ve successfully debunked my God, will you start on **Polycarp** ’s, then **JubilationTCornpone** ’s, then **Mangetout** ’s, then… It _is_ a little unfair for an atheist interested in “proving” their beliefs are true. You can’t just prove a particular god doesn’t exist, you have to prove that _all possible_ gods don’t exist. I think it’s safe to say there are inifinitely many such gods (oh yeah, **Polycarp** , your God plus one!). Can you demonstrate that it is not possible for any god to exist? I think that’s what you’re trying to do when you say that God is the work of human hands. But so is Einstein’s special relativity. Wasn’t it just invented by man to explain his perception of the universe? Does that mean it’s false? Your reply might be “yeah…but that’s man using his reason…and observations…to posit an explanation…that he believes reflects reality…”. Of course, my reply is “Isn’t religion?”. kg m²/s² ---
**Author:** ![Ipse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@Ipse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ipse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/308 "2002-04-11T18:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > Obviously a false dilemma. I’m not suggesting that if you don’t attack the Bible, then you should attack the Qur’an instead. > > Rather, if you’re going to dismiss theism, you should address theism itself, rather than just a few specific religious beliefs. It is the height of intellectual dishonest to attack the Bible or the Qur’an, and then pretend that this invalidates theism as a whole. \*\* I see… so the Qur’an and the bible are not representatives of theism? I have been told for many years that if X=Y than Y=X… Is this not the case with theism? ---
**Author:** ![Newton\_meter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/57b2e6/32.png) [@Newton\_meter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Newton_meter)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/309 "2002-04-11T18:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\*I see… so the Qur’an and the bible are not representatives of theism? I have been told for many years that if X=Y than Y=X… Is this not the case with theism? \*\* There’s no equals, there’s an _is-a_. _is-a_ is not commutative. If Socrates is a man, does that mean man is a Socrates? ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/310 "2002-04-11T18:30:11Z")
The reflexive property of equality only works if the two things being compared are entirely equivalent. If all caucasians are human beings, does that mean that all human beings are caucasian? ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/311 "2002-04-11T18:31:37Z")
SIMULPOST!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ipse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@Ipse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ipse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/312 "2002-04-11T18:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Newton meter \* > \*\* > Since you ask, I would rather you not _attack_ anything. > > The problem with your tack, **Ipse** is that theists usually don’t believe in gods in general, they believe in a _particular_ god. When you’ve successfully debunked my God, will you start on **Polycarp** ’s, then **JubilationTCornpone** ’s, then **Mangetout** ’s, then… > > It _is_ a little unfair for an atheist interested in “proving” their beliefs are true. You can’t just prove a particular god doesn’t exist, you have to prove that _all possible_ gods don’t exist. I think it’s safe to say there are inifinitely many such gods (oh yeah, **Polycarp** , your God plus one!). Can you demonstrate that it is not possible for any god to exist? > > I think that’s what you’re trying to do when you say that God is the work of human hands. But so is Einstein’s special relativity. Wasn’t it just invented by man to explain his perception of the universe? Does that mean it’s false? > > Your reply might be “yeah…but that’s man using his reason…and observations…to posit an explanation…that he believes reflects reality…”. Of course, my reply is “Isn’t religion?”. > > kg m²/s² \*\* I would lik eto thank you for pointing out my wrongness in the mannor in which you did… I do realize that theists believe in one “God” and not many in general, but I was trying to remain as broad as possible, to allow what I was saying to touch on as many religions as possible, and as many gods… I am not an atheist, an atheist believes in god but hates religion, (Or at least it used to)… I am saying that in fact yes, religion is the work of human hands… and in saying that, that god, is the work of human hands… As was Einstines theory of relativity as well, you are correct… and yes it provides better understanding of the universe and the world around… and yes, that is what religion is… have we justified faith in god? and my reply was not going to be: “yeah…but that’s man using his reason…and observations…to posit an explanation…that he believes reflects reality…” I would have replied so is religion, that is what I have been trying ot say for the last 7 postings… thankyou for making the connectin Newton meter… ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/313 "2002-04-11T19:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ipse \* > \*\*I am not an atheist, an atheist believes in god but hates religion, (Or at least it used to)… \*\* No. A theist is someone who believes in God. The prefix “a-” means “not”, or “without” in the respect of being completely outside the concept defined by the root word. Asexual reproduction is “not sexual.” Amoral acts are outside the concept of morality. They are not immoral. Immoral refers to acts that contridict morality. Atonal does not mean off-key music. It means complete disregard for any existence of key. Therefore an atheist is someone who hold beliefs completely outside the concept of a higher power at work. ---
**Author:** ![Ipse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@Ipse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ipse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285/314 "2002-04-11T19:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hoopy Frood \* > \*\* > > No. A theist is someone who believes in God. > > The prefix “a-” means “not”, or “without” in the respect of being completely outside the concept defined by the root word. > > Asexual reproduction is “not sexual.” > > Amoral acts are outside the concept of morality. They are not immoral. Immoral refers to acts that contridict morality. > > Atonal does not mean off-key music. It means complete disregard for any existence of key. > > Therefore an atheist is someone who hold beliefs completely outside the concept of a higher power at work. \*\* thankyou for educateing Me… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-anyone-justify-belief-in-god/100285.md?page=15)