How can anyone worship a god whose earthly record is such useless tripe?

**js_africanus wrote:

Ugh! As near as I can figure the bible is a reason to not believe! And that goes for all you other religions: if your god didn’t bother to tell us how to treat childhood diahrrea and save a choking person’s life, then your god ain’t worth shit. No offense.

Model-Shipwright wrote:

Even if you had absolute physical proof that there was never a god and that the bible was a complete scam, they would still believe.**

The error you’ve both made here is to confuse the religion with the religious text that it’s based upon. They are not the same thing.

Even if you were to prove that everything in the Christian Bible is mythological, that would not invalidate the very real experiences that many Christians have had with their God. Those experiences are the foundations of their faith. I feel I can speak authoritatively on this because I have had a direct encounter with the J/C/I deity. Later on, I had an encounter with another, too. And that second encounter is the basis of my Pagan faith.

Those encounters were real, as real as anything can be. No, sorry, I can’t replicate it. But just because I can’t doesn’t invalidate the experiences or mean that they didn’t happen. Sorry, you’ll have to take my word for it that I was not sleep deprived or hallucinating or pscyhologically inbalanced when they happened.

Actually, though I may have stated it poorly–which is more likely than not–the part you quoted regarding other religions was somewhat henotheistic. Since the bible is supposed to be the word of god; and since the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving; and since the bible is such a flawed piece of material vis-a-vis how to live life or relate to said god, I am tempted to conclude that the god of the bible simply cannot exist because if he did he would have been been able to create an earthly record that could only have been created by god. That would leave no doubt; that would let us make truly informed choices; that would instruct us how to live and relate to him. It’s the absence of expected evidence that’s the problem.

In regards to the other religions, I merely pointed out that if their gods aren’t going to do anything worthy of worship, then they aren’t worth shit–whether they exists is a matter of little concern to me. If you have proof of them, I would be happy to read about it in another thread.

The only way that can even come close to carrying weight is if you’re a henotheist. And if you are, then you need to reconcile your Pagan beliefs with your Christian beliefs. I’ve known people who have beliefs in astrology for the very same reason: The know that it is true.

Plus, internal knowing like that doesn’t mean much. If it did, then we wouldn’t have to have invented science.

I can’t cast the first stone on that one. :wink:

Why?! Oh, you’re killing me! Just kidding. These things aren’t trivial by any means. Take capital formation and risk as an example. What we can accomplish in terms of helping the poor, fighting disease, and fighting things like localized drought are very much dependent on the wealth we have. Of course, politics and stuff can get in the way–don’t get me wrong about that–but if we don’t have food to give to the starving, then nothing else matters. But if a culture can’t afford to carry the burden of non-primary producers, then there will be no doctors, no science, etc.

All throughout human history we’ve been subject to the whim of nature in terms of feast or famine. Humanity had little concept of how wealth is created or how economic growth happens. Nor did we understand the nature of risk and how to minimize it. Untold suffering and death has been a result. Suppose that in ancient Egypt Ra came to the Pharoh and gave him the basics of capital markets, the use of capital, and the nature of risk. Instead of wasting unbelievable resources on tombs that didn’t even work, perhaps the Pharoh could have used the knowledge to productive infrastructure. What legacy would that Pharoh want to leave: A big ass tomb, or the world in the hands of his successor? That is the choice he would have been presented with. Or consider the scene from “The Man Who Would be King” where one village elder asks Connery for permission to raid another village because of localized drought. Instead of violence, Connery enacts a risk sharing scheme for the kingdom.

What does the bible have to say about this? If I recall correctly, it eschews lending at interest–hence Jews were the bankers in Europe for so long. The bible also seems to proscribe gambling. If god had taken a moment to add that insurance is the exact opposite of gambling and that it should be encouraged much suffering could have been avoided.

In other words, having a clear understanding of the basics of capital formation and risk, humanity could have been saved untold suffering.

So I don’t consider anything on the list to be padding. Nor do they constitute a wishlist to make the world perfect. We would still have to deal with each other; we would still have to deal with aging and death; we would still have to figure out our relationship to god. None of that stuff is diminished by a nominal effort by god to help us stamp out unnecessary suffering.

The bible is supposed to be divinely inspired, no? What evidence is there of that? I’ve heard that the poetry of the Koran is so wonderful that only god could have written it. The bible hardly qualifies even for that minimal standard. This is god we’re talking about. Creating a book that helps us with our real problems, that helps us really understand god’s creation, and that unambiguously guides our relations with god is not a logical impossibility. At least it’s not obvious to me. We’re not talking about god creating an immovable object and an unstoppable force.

The fact that anything in the bible can be considered bunk is not acceptable. The fact that instead of a short treatise on sanitation we get the unmitigated evil of the Book of Job does not suggest divine inspiration, but earthly creation. This is god’s word on how we are to live. If the simplest person can’t understand it, then it can’t be divinely inspired simply because the a loving creator wouldn’t abandon those in most need. The fact that it can be so widely and so extremely subject to interpretation says to me that god didn’t have a thing to do with it.

Part of the problem is that the bible itself is out of its own context. Both the old testament and new testament are missing several books contemporarily written that were purposely omitted by religious authorities because these texts did not conform to the official sanctioned beliefs at the time of compilation. The book of Enoch (IIRC), and the Gospel of Thomas are examples of old and new testament books that did not make the final cut. With respect to Revelations, you are right in that no one really knows its true meaning. However, in reading parts of the published Dead Sea Scrolls, I have discovered many correlations between both books, which suggests that either Revelations was written with heavy Essene influence, or the Essenes written their scrolls with their own interpretation of perhaps an older text from which Revelations derived.

Like many, I have too struggled with the idea of God’s influence on mankind, and I have come to the personal conclusion that God does not intervene because the true gift from God is one of free will. IMHO, any gift from God would be 100% genuine, meaning that if God actually did meddle in our lives then free will would be compromised. I can’t say what the purpose of God is (no one can), but the way I see it, we were probably part of God and he granted us an individual spirit that we will enjoy more freely after we have struggled with living on earth.

**js_africanus wrote:

Actually, though I may have stated it poorly–which is more likely than not–the part you quoted regarding other religions was somewhat henotheistic. Since the bible is supposed to be the word of god; and since the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving; and since the bible is such a flawed piece of material vis-a-vis how to live life or relate to said god, I am tempted to conclude that the god of the bible simply cannot exist because if he did he would have been been able to create an earthly record that could only have been created by god. That would leave no doubt; that would let us make truly informed choices; that would instruct us how to live and relate to him. It’s the absence of expected evidence that’s the problem.**

I think we need to agree with some terms here. From the start, I’m not Christian, so this is just my take on it. YMMV :smiley:

Since the bible is supposed to be the word of god; Here’s the first one. I’ll agree that some if it is, but certainly not all of it. In fact, only the Fundamentalists/literalists, accept the Bible as the absolute Word of God (R). IIRC, many Christians take a more moderate approach and see it as a collection of mythology, history (albeit one-sided), poetry and prose.

and since the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving; Again, IMHO, I think this leads to some distinctly illogical conclusions and therefore is false. I believe the Gods to be very powerful, very knowledgable Beings that exist in ways we, as humans can’t imagine. But to give the the label of “omnipotent” etc is wrong.

and since the bible is such a flawed piece of material vis-a-vis how to live life or relate to said god, I am tempted to conclude that the god of the bible simply cannot exist because if he did he would have been been able to create an earthly record that could only have been created by god. Have you ever considered the fact that the reason the Bible is flawed is because it was written by men of a specific time and place and social situation? Those flaws you see might simply be the filter of those authors due to their time, place and social situation in history. Consider this; people in the year 5003 will probably look back at the writing and other remnants of the late 20th and early 21st century and shake their heads in wonder and what we believed and thought.

It’s the absence of expected evidence that’s the problem. For those of who have had a close encounter with the divine, we have all the evidence we need. Sorry if that’s not good enough for you. I hope you might have your own close encounter sometime.

**js_africanus wrote:

The only way that can even come close to carrying weight is if you’re a henotheist. And if you are, then you need to reconcile your Pagan beliefs with your Christian beliefs. I’ve known people who have beliefs in astrology for the very same reason: The know that it is true.

Plus, internal knowing like that doesn’t mean much. If it did, then we wouldn’t have to have invented science.**

I’m not a henotheist, I’m a polytheist. Do I still win? :smiley:

Whilst internal knowing might not mean much to you, but it was my personal experience and it rang true for me. Sorry if you can’t believe that. But then, I’m not trying to convince you that (the)God(s) exists, just letting you know you’re not considering all the evidence.

This is perhaps the most interesting thread I have seen on this board in some time, not only for its topic, but for the clarity of thought and expression in virtually every post.

I’m also very impressed that a topic this sensitive has accumulated this many posts without degenerating into a mindless slanging match. Congratulations!

I’m being completely sincere, by the way.

I believe you are sincere. Since you have only three posts I guess I’ll be one of the first to say “WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!” Depending on how much lurking you did before you joined up, you may not be surprised to know that if this same topic were in IMHO or the Barbecue Pit you would likely see somewhat more snarky answers. Usually the more genteel among Dopers offer up arguments in GD. No, really. :smiley:

Religion and belief are very sensitive topics. But we really do try to remain civil while stating in undertone if not directly that the many and varied views of others are sad evidence of the poor creatures’ delusion.

The SDMB is a really fun place. Glad you joined up. Do you have access to a cheap supply of hamster food?

I see the point you’re drivivng at with the economics thing, js_africanus, but money and the use therof is (as far as I am aware) and entirely human invention; why is it reasonable to expect God to dish out advice concerning the correct operation of a system for which he isn’t responsible?

Good question. I’d have to say that the mathematics behind stuff like that is fairly universal, so while certain conventions are arbitrary, there is a lot of stuff that isn’t. A good example would be how the relative size of the variance diminishes for a set of random variables as the set grows larger. (That’s an ugly statement from a mathematical point of view, but I think the point behind it remains valid.) That’s what makes insurance possible and why it is the opposite of gambling. Another would be the mathematics behind the tragedy of the commons–resources such as Europe’s forests could have been much more sensibly used if the predictive power of such a model were brought to bear.

The tricky bit about phrases like “if their gods aren’t going to do anything worthy of worship” tends to be that it leaves open the question of whose standards of “worthy” are to be used.

Compared to the various gods and divine forces which have been followed over time, the qualifications for what make something “human” are pretty well known, and there isn’t any established consensus on what makes for worthy human behaviour. I think it’s a fairly extraordinary claim (requiring extraordinary evidence) that there exists such a standard for entities whose traits, characteristics, qualities, motivations, and purpose are not usefully specified.

Could you rephrase that, please? I’m not sure I follow.

You said that a god that doesn’t do anything “worthy” is worth shit, roughly paraphrasing.

Who gets to define what’s “worthy” behaviour for a god?

People can’t even agree on what’s “worthy” behaviour for people.

I’d hesitate to suggest that there’s some sort of consensus on what’s worthy behaviour for a god, when there isn’t even a consensus on what a god is.

You’ve presented the things that would be worthy in your eyes; however, those standards are only your own. If you want to convince others that your standards for the behaviour of the divine are standards they should accept, you’re going to need to do better than a declaration of faith.

Never mind economic systems (entirely of and for people, and our own concern). But why would a being supposed by many to be benevolent not provide basic instruction on hygiene and disease prevention, especially since this being purportedly created the diseases and the agents for their dispersal in the first place? How can you look upon a pediatric aids or cancer ward, or see children racked with spina bifida and cystic fibrosis and then heap praise and love on the monster who created those diseases and neglected to save even innocent children from their ravages?

Evidence of “God’s love” is lacking in the Bible, compared to evidence of his malice, with which the book is rife. Hookworm for the barefoot poor, genocide ordered by the immortal tyrant, the
flood, allowing the murder of whole families to satisfy a wager with an underling (book of Job), and the final insult to decency, Hell.

Maybe the Bible is a collection of works not to be taken literally. But if so, why does it exist at all? Its justice is harsher than anything Draco could have dreamed up. And the basis of the Christian faith – the idea that the one completely innocent person could be punished for the sins of all the guilty – is the very type of injustice.

Only people whose indoctrination had begun before they had formed the ability of critical judgement could accept the cosmic bully as father, protector and lover of mankind.

As to the standard to which a god should hold himself, I think it should be at least on the level of the kindest, most loving humans. To display behavior that is markedly less than even an average man is simply unacceptable.