# How can Captain Marvel be a woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2019, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594 "2019-03-27T05:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/81 "2019-03-30T01:07:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That was really my question. Even if tin was valuable in the Bronze Age, it would have been much less so by the time of the alchemists, making the association of one of the basest metals with the noblest planet puzzling. > > The other planetary associations aren’t too hard to figure out. Gold for the Sun and silver for the Moon are obviously references to their color. Copper was used for mirrors, which was the symbol of the lovely Venus. Iron was used for weapons, linking it to Mars, the god of war; the planet’s rusty color may have been another link. Mercury, the fastest planet, was linked to quicksilver, and Saturn, the slowest planet, to heavy lead. In one form or another, alchemy can, from what I’m reading, be traced back to the time of the Babylonians and possibly to the Sumerians. That’s Bronze Age. Also, even if it weren’t valuable for use in making bronze, the fact that it is an elemental metal would be considered significant even then. They knew of seven elemental metals. They knew of seven planets (counting the Sun and Moon, and they did). Not a big stretch of the imagination to associate the two. Humans are good at making patterns and associations, even when there’s no (to us) reasonable basis to do so. As to why Jupiter, I don’t know. Maybe it was because they’d made the associations you suggest and Jupiter and tin were what was left over so they got paired up. Or maybe it was because, as I said before, it was rare at the time and required to create the metal that gave the era its name. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/82 "2019-03-30T05:17:33Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Marvel has used the name Captain Marvel for both male (Mar-Vell, a Kree) and female (Carol Danvers, human or human-kree hybrid depending on which reboot you’re in) characters. … And here is the curious or possibly awkward thing, considering the history of trademark disputes between the Superman and Captain Marvel universes: on one hand, we have a Marvel female superhero privately named _Carol_ Danvers; on the other hand, we have a DC female superhero (Supergirl) privately named _Kara_ Danvers. Both blonde-haired athletes wearing blue/red/gold uniforms. At least their first names wouldn’t sound anything alike if shouted during a crowded fight scene (in, say, a crossover movie) — because that would make matters even more confusing! … Oh, wait. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/83 "2019-03-30T05:30:32Z")
The alloying of tin and copper made bronze for knives and swords, rather important: you might say the marriage of Jupiter and Venus signified that importance. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/84 "2019-03-30T05:36:20Z")
Well, Kara using ‘Kara’ and ‘Danvers’ together started with the TV series. Two comic versions of the character have used it since then - the current main universe version used it for about 2 years (from when the Rebirth version of the comic took many cues from the TV series, up to when she went into space, therefor abandoning the identity) and the version in Being Super was raised as Kara Danvers. But prior to the series, if she was using the Danvers name, it was Linda (Lee) Danvers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/85 "2019-03-30T13:32:26Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Well, Kara using ‘Kara’ and ‘Danvers’ together started with the TV series. > > Two comic versions of the character have used it since then - the current main universe version used it for about 2 years (from when the Rebirth version of the comic took many cues from the TV series, up to when she went into space, therefor abandoning the identity) and the version in Being Super was raised as Kara Danvers. > > But prior to the series, if she was using the Danvers name, it was Linda (Lee) Danvers. Indeed. The comic character was “Linda Lee” from 1959-1961 (during which time she was living at an orphanage where Superman had parked her so she could learn Earth-ways. In 1961, the character was adopted by the Danvers couple and used their name as “Linda Danvers” right up to the character’s death in 1985. After that, things get… messy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/86 "2019-03-30T13:38:50Z")
Except that Jupiter and Venus were never married. Jupiter was married to Juno, and though he slept around a lot, I don’t think it’s ever mentioned that he got it on with Venus. And Venus was technically married to Vulcan, but mostly got it on with Mars. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/87 "2019-03-30T14:24:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Except that Jupiter and Venus were never married. Jupiter was married to Juno, and though he slept around a lot, I don’t think it’s ever mentioned that he got it on with Venus. And Venus was technically married to Vulcan, but mostly got it on with Mars. Depending on the specific account, Aphrodite/Venus was either Zeus/Jupiter’s aunt (born of Ouranos/Uranus’s genitals which Kronos/Saturn severed and threw in the sea) or his daughter (with the Titan Dione). Zeus had sexual relations with some of his aunts, but I can’t recall any story in which he slept with his own daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/88 "2019-03-30T15:27:47Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > As to why Jupiter, I don’t know. Maybe it was because they’d made the associations you suggest and Jupiter and tin were what was left over so they got paired up. Or maybe it was because, as I said before, it was rare at the time and required to create the metal that gave the era its name. The alchemists weren’t the sort to make an association just due to the fact that tin was “left over,” especially to such a significant planet as Jupiter. And whatever its value 1500 years earlier, at that time tin was less valuable than any of the other metals except maybe lead or iron. So I’m sure that the link between tin and Jupiter must have been due to some association that we’re not aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/89 "2019-03-30T17:49:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > He changed his name? Why? So he wouldn’t be throwing business Stan Lee’s way? > > I wonder if **Cal Meacham** has an article on this stuff somewhere… > ETA: Was the Marvel Comics Captain Marvel always a woman? > > ETA ETA: And I still want to know if either one spent any time as a lieutenant. I’d like to take this opportunity to use this post to promote my favorite comic book/pop culture resource, the MTR Network. They do a Character Corner podcast, where they cover the relevant history of comic characters, and they’ve taken up the practice of focusing on characters that have upcoming movies. If you’re interested in a deep dive into the characters’ histories, but prefer an audio/podcast format to reading the wikipedia entries, I highly recommend MTR Network! Here’s a trio of podcasts they’ve released in the past month, which cover the history of Captain Marvel (All of the Marvel iterations, as well as the Fawcett/DC version): Part 1: The Life and Death of Mar-Vell: [Captain Marvel Part 1 - The Life & Death of Mar-Vell - MTR Network](https://www.mtrnetwork.net/character-corner/marvel/captain-marvel-part-1-the-life-death-of-mar-vell/) Part 2: Monica Rambeau and Carol Danvers: Heavy Hitters of the Marvel Universe: [Captain Marvel Part 2: Monica Rambeau and Carol Danvers, Heavy Hitters of the Marvel Universe - MTR Network](https://www.mtrnetwork.net/character-corner/marvel/captain-marvel-part-2-monica-rambeau-and-carol-danvers-heavy-hitters-of-the-marvel-universe/) Part 3: Billy Batson, Shazam and the Marvel Family: [Captain Marvel Part 3: Billy Batson, Shazam & the Marvel Family - MTR Network](https://www.mtrnetwork.net/character-corner/dc/captain-marvel-part-3-billy-batson-shazam/) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/90 "2019-03-30T18:04:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > After that, things get… messy. Always one for the understatement, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/91 "2019-03-30T20:53:57Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > General timeline: > 1940 Fawcett creates Captain Marvel. > 1948 DC sues Fawcett, because they believe CM is too much like Superman. > 1952 An extremely confusing verdict is laid down, so… > 1953 Fawcett decides to get out of comic books. > (Somewhere in here, another Captain Marvel is created by a third rate company, but he’s unimportant (and stupid) enough that I’m not going to bother looking up the year.) You forgot 1966 MF Enterprises publishes a short-lived series of a completely different Captain Marvel – a robot that could split off his arms and legs (and maybe head I guess) to fight independently. I believe this is relevant because it was this series that made Marvel realize they should get busy and trademark the name. > [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > 1967 Marvel decides that since Captain Marvel isn’t in use, it should be theirs, so Mar-Vell is created. > 1968 Carol Danvers is created. > 1977 DC licenses Fawcett’s Captain Marvel, but due to Marvel’s trademark on the title, calls his comics (and TV adaptation) Shazam! > 1977 Carol Danvers becomes Ms. Marvel. > 1982 Marvel’s the first Captain Marvel dies (for the first time). He has various successors over the ensuing decades…including himself. (Long story.) > 1991 DC buys CM outright, still has to call his comics Shazam! > 2009 DC finally gives up and renames the character Shazam. (Initially, this comes along with making Freddy (formerly Captain Marvel jr) the primary hero, but within 2 years it’s reverted to Billy (as part of relaunching DC’s entire line).) > 2012 Carol Danvers becomes Captain Marvel. > 2019 Both Marvel and DC release movies based on their respective characters. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/92 "2019-03-30T21:38:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Indeed. The comic character was “Linda Lee” from 1959-1961 (during which time she was living at an orphanage where Superman had parked her so she could learn Earth-ways. In 1961, the character was adopted by the Danvers couple and used their name as “Linda Danvers” right up to the character’s death in 1985. > > After that, things get… messy. What’s so messy about the post-Crisis Supergirl, a shapeshifting artificial lifeform/clone of Lana Lang created by the (heroic) Lex Luthor of a pocket dimension, that later became merged to a demon worshipping human Linda Danvers and became an “earth bound angel” with a demon named Buzz as a sidekick? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/93 "2019-03-30T22:31:44Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > What’s so messy about the post-Crisis Supergirl, a shapeshifting artificial lifeform/clone of Lana Lang created by the (heroic) Lex Luthor of a pocket dimension, that later became merged to a demon worshipping human Linda Danvers and became an “earth bound angel” with a demon named Buzz as a sidekick? :smack: She also dated Lex Luthor’s son, not realizing he was just Lex faking an accent. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/94 "2019-03-31T00:24:23Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > What’s so messy about the post-Crisis Supergirl, a shapeshifting artificial lifeform/clone of Lana Lang created by the (heroic) Lex Luthor of a pocket dimension, that later became merged to a demon worshipping human Linda Danvers and became an “earth bound angel” with a demon named Buzz as a sidekick? :smack: Hawkman says “Hold my beer.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/95 "2019-03-31T16:15:05Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > What’s so messy about the post-Crisis Supergirl, a shapeshifting artificial lifeform/clone of Lana Lang created by the (heroic) Lex Luthor of a pocket dimension, that later became merged to a demon worshipping human Linda Danvers and became an “earth bound angel” with a demon named Buzz as a sidekick? :smack: I thought you might be kidding until I checked Wiki… So it wouldn’t be that strange if it is eventually revealed that Carol Danvers has been an alter-ego of Billy Batson all along.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/96 "2019-03-31T16:27:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Hawkman says “Hold my beer.” The Legion of Super-Heroes patiently wait their turn. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/97 "2019-04-01T02:23:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The alchemists weren’t the sort to make an association just due to the fact that tin was “left over,” especially to such a significant planet as Jupiter. And whatever its value 1500 years earlier, at that time tin was less valuable than any of the other metals except maybe lead or iron. So I’m sure that the link between tin and Jupiter must have been due to some association that we’re not aware of. Tin, and bronze, remained important metals well past the end of the Roman Empire’s heyday. Roman swords were made with bronze. The tin mines in Cornwall were one of only three sites in Western Europe from which tin could be mined, and even after Rome withdrew from England, they came back to buy the tin. In fact, tin is one of the main reasons Rome invaded and ruled England. So tin was and remained incredibly important for a long, long time, and was certainly valuable enough to be associated with the major god of the Roman pantheon. Recent excavations at Tintagel show it to have been a major trade port well into the 500s and later, and what they sold was tin. The sale of tin allowed the rulers there to live very luxurious (for Dark Ages values of luxury) lives. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/98 "2019-04-01T03:18:03Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > So tin was and remained incredibly important for a long, long time, and was certainly valuable enough to be associated with the major god of the Roman pantheon. I’m still not buying an association merely on the basis of value, even if it was valuable. All the other associations are more specific. Basically you’re still saying they are associated because they were “left over.” We’re missing some aspect of the qualities of tin, or of Jupiter, that led them to be linked. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/99 "2019-04-01T14:06:36Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > You forgot > 1966 MF Enterprises publishes a short-lived series of a completely different Captain Marvel – a robot that could split off his arms and legs (and maybe head I guess) to fight independently. I believe this is relevant because it was this series that made Marvel realize they should get busy and trademark the name. **Kamino Neko** didn’t forget. It’s right there in the post you quoted: > [@Kamino Neko](#): > > (Somewhere in here, another Captain Marvel is created by a third rate company, but he’s unimportant (and stupid) enough that I’m not going to bother looking up the year.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594/100 "2019-04-01T14:21:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m still not buying an association merely on the basis of value, even if it was valuable. All the other associations are more specific. Basically you’re still saying they are associated because they were “left over.” We’re missing some aspect of the qualities of tin, or of Jupiter, that led them to be linked. Maybe tin has some association with lightning? Or eagles? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-captain-marvel-be-a-woman/831594.md?page=6)