# How can Christian GW Bush supporters reconcile their beliefs with Bush policies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562 "2004-10-22T05:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/41 "2004-10-22T16:40:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s an exceptionally stupid reason to vote for somebody. It probably is, but it would be very misleading to say that my post implied I thought that was the reason. I explicitly said I didn’t know how one would decide which of the two candidates was more Christian in the personal lives. But then, I don’t imagine you think there is any reason to vote for Bush that is NOT stupid, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/42 "2004-10-22T16:46:11Z")
I fail to see the dilemma. The body of Scripture that informs the Christian faith is large and diverse enough that you can find just about any message in it you choose. Ergo, many parts of the tradition contain logic that is mutually exclusive, and requires qualifiers like “The Lord moves in mysterious ways” to make any sense of whatsoever. Since Christians have been dealing with internal inconsistency and contradiction for roughly 2000 years now, how is it that Bush’s brand of evangelical Christanity presents any sort of unanticipated paradox? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/43 "2004-10-22T21:22:02Z")
\*\*Renob[/b}: > [@](#): > > And it amazes me what theolgoical gyrations liberals go through to suggest that these wasteful government spending programs that **only** victimize the poor are, by definition, required by your faith. Ah hah! You’re not being specific as to which programs we’re talking about, and yet you dismiss _all_ publicly-funded programs as doing _nothing_ but “victimize” the poor. Healt care, education and job training victimize the poor? And you call them all “wasteful” not because you’ve done the math in each case, but because you’re conservative philosophy defines them as wasteful so you can denigrate them. Most people who recieve cash assistance do so for a short period of time. Programs which do a better job of lifting people up from poverty and forstalling the cycle of dependancy need to be more sophisticated, but conservatives hate nuance and see everything in black-and-white. And a truly effective anti-poverty _might_ be more expensive. Would you be willing to pay for it if it showed such promise or would you continue to demand _yet another_ tax cut? (Oh, and I don’t see how it’s a “theological gyration” to oppose giving _less_ help to the poor when Jesus clearly tells us to to help the poor. That may be lacking in nuance but it’s hardly a distortion). > [@](#): > > For example, I do not view government policies that allow people to keep more money to help their family, to give to charity, to create jobs that employ the poor, etc., as selfish. well _I_ view rhetoric like this as _not_ focused on helping the poor but on finding (parroting) rationalizations for getting more money for themselves. We all know that people don’t give their tax cuts to charity dollar-for-dollar. And tax cuts don’t automatically create jobs with complete reliability–there’s a point of diminishing returns. And not everyone who is poor is poor solely because tax rates (didn’t Reagan _already_ cut taxes?) have destroyed the jobs they might have gotten. Jesus never came out against familiy planning, and yet conservtive opposition to it is a major cause of poverty, but directly and in terms of overseas job loss. And yet I support supply-side economics as _part_ of a compassionate and practical set of social policies. It’s the _attitude_ of many conservatives that I have a problem with. “_My_ taxes, _my_ taxes, _my_ taxes, my opponnet wants to raise _your_ taxes, liberals are all socialists who hate America”, etc. If at worst liberals are naively misguided then a wise, compassionate person should be able to set them straight without displaying so much contempt and hostility as we often hear from the right. As for foreign policy, no one is suggesting that we actually turn the other cheek to Osama bin Laden, but we needed to be much more compassionate and helpful to those innocent Afghanis whose lives we disrupted and to the Muslim world in general. We shouldn’t have let our anger over 9/11 turn into such unbridled enthusiasm for “kicking ass” and contempt and hostility for anyone who isn’t as bloodthirsty as we have become, like the French. We didn’t invade Iraq because we had to, but in order to satisfy our thirst for revenge. Using military force and/or brutal interrogation techniques is sometimes neccessary, but only as a last resort. That wasn’t the case in Iraq and Abu Garib. Christ’s message boils down to good will begats good will, and yet when the whole World is angry at us for our arrogant behavior, our response is to hate the whole World. > [@](#): > > Any more than I should use the goverment to force adulterers to quit being adulterous or gay people to quit being gay. It’s not government’s place to enforce religious strictures. well, a lot of people do think that the US is a “Chritian nation” and therefore the government should enforce Christian _beliefs_ like the “sanctity” of marriage and the need to “acknowledge” God in our official oaths, even as they denigrate Christian _ideals_ such as peace and loving our neighbors and helping the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/44 "2004-10-22T22:09:01Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > But then we get into how do you define “selfish.” For example, I do not view government policies that allow people to keep more money to help their family, to give to charity, to create jobs that employ the poor, etc., as selfish. It seems that you do. That’s fine, but I think it’s a bit short-sighted to say that only the policies that you support are “Christian” policies, but the policies that I support are not. My Christian faith informs my politics just as much as I assume your faith does yours. We come to different conclusions about what policies to support, however. So is one of us justified in saying that the other is unchristian? The only problem with this is that the government policies you espouse have not done what you think they should. We’ve already seen that tax cuts targeted to the rich have not created jobs. The higher tax Clinton years had both higher job creation and less poverty. Repeal of the estate tax (which I bet you support) would cut charitable giving between 3.6 and 6 billion dollars. [Cite](http://brookings.edu/views/articles/gale/20030617.htm)[Another from OMB Watch](http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/1853/1/93/) I can’t find much about overall giving, but I did find that giving in 2002 barely kept up with inflation, and certainly did not increase as a result of the tax cut. So, while you hew to the line that tax cuts help the poor, the facts give us a different story. Surely you noticed the recent articles showing how poverty has increased in the past few years? I think Jesus would be more interested in the actual impact of the tax cuts, not the supp[y side theories about what the impact should have been. BTW, as someone who is not and never has been Christian, I kind of resent the implication that giving is inherently Christian, and that a policy of government assistance to those in need will make this a Christian country. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/45 "2004-10-22T22:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s just take this one item and explore it in depth. After the attacks of 9/11, what would you propose as the “Christian response”? Let’s not get into Iraq, let’s just talk about what your proposal would be to deal with Al Qaeda. Shouild I assume that it would be “Hey Osama, here’s our other cheek”? Well, I am a Christian, and I also strongly support isolationism in foreign policy. Ergo, my response to 9/11 would primarily involve actually listening to the stated goals of the terrorists, which in many respects correspond with what I think we should be doing. They want us out of Saudi Arabia, and to stop supporting corrupt ME regimes and Israel? Fine by me. I would have immediately pulled us out of the ME, cut any sort of support to Israel (both of which I would support even if al-Qaeda were out of the picture), and focused on fortifying our domestic security. At the same time, as soon as OBL and his companions were identified as the source of the attack, I would have demanded that Afghanistan hand over those immediately responsible; if they refused, then would be the time to attack. However, as soon as OBL et al. were caught or killed, I would have withdrawn our forces completely. Forcible nation-building is a supremely bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/46 "2004-10-22T22:40:38Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > However, as soon as OBL et al. were caught or killed, I would have withdrawn our forces completely. Forcible nation-building is a supremely bad idea. It’s the “et al.” part where it gets sticky. We most likely won’t \*\*\*ever \*\*\*get every “al.” in the “et”, if you catch my drift. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/47 "2004-10-22T23:04:15Z")
Am I bold? ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/48 "2004-10-24T07:51:54Z")
> [@renoB](#): > > I do not think He meant them to apply to how governments operate. Christ was not concerned with politics. It was irrelevant to Him. He taught people how to love God and love others. In that, he said that we need to help the poor, forgive others, etc. However, does it logically follow that our government must do this? I don’t think it does. If this is the case, we would have no criminal justice system. How can we lock someone up if the government forgives them? And if the government followed Christ’s teachings, then it would be obligated to be actively involved in evangelism. I don’t think anyone thinks that’s a proper function of government. > [@John Mace](#): > > I’ve read the Gospels. I find some what Jesus said to be good and useful, and some of what he said to be unuseful. And I’ve found NONE of what he said that I would take into advisement for running a government. > > But what’s your point about this anyway? Are you advocating a Christain Theocracy for the US? 🙂 It is not about being a theocracy. The government should not concern itself with religious _beliefs_, but if the government is comprised of Christians then it would be hypocritical for them not to base policy on Christain _values_. The point is how can a Christian support a government that clearly does not follow Christian values. As a Christian I would vote for the government that most represented my set of values and ethics. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/49 "2004-10-25T07:12:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > For some mysterious reason, the fundies in this country have decided that GWB is the “Christian” candidate. He isn’t. Neither is Kerry. An [email campaign](http://go.sojo.net/campaign/takebackourfaith) which may interest you - or not… Grim ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/50 "2004-10-25T07:16:58Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Am I bold? _And_ daring! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/51 "2004-10-25T10:41:48Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > The point is how can a Christian support a government that clearly does not follow Christian values. > > As a Christian I would vote for the government that most represented my set of values and ethics. Where this argument runs into trouble is in defining _Christian values_. For a significant number of Christians in the US, Christian values _is_ keeping down the gays, keeping down taxes, keeping up the pressure on those godless Muslims, keeping pornography in check…in other words, keep others from doing things you’d want to do but can’t while your fellow Christians are watching… ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/52 "2004-10-25T11:13:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Where this argument runs into trouble is in defining _Christian values_. For a significant number of Christians in the US, Christian values _is_ keeping down the gays, keeping down taxes, keeping up the pressure on those godless Muslims, keeping pornography in check…in other words, keep others from doing things you’d want to do but can’t while your fellow Christians are watching… Dont forget the drugs. I was not aware that these were ethics that Christ taught. How did we get from looking after the poor, avoiding violence, honesty, tolerance and forgiveness to no porn, no drugs, no taxes, no heathens and no pooftas. > [@grimpixie](#): > > An email campaign which may interest you - or not… > > Grim These people must have read this thread. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562/53 "2004-10-25T12:12:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s an exceptionally stupid reason to vote for somebody. Senator Kerry doesn’t seem to think so. In fact, he’s very quick to emphasize his own supposed religiosity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christian-gw-bush-supporters-reconcile-their-beliefs-with-bush-policies/270562.md?page=2)