# How can Christians "believe" in Evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885 "2005-03-10T19:40:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/121 "2005-03-14T19:05:43Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And all this in a world that was “made for mankind.” What is all this fleeing and killing, entertainment for us? Everything happens for a reason. It’s all in God’s plan. God moves in mysterious ways. It’s all part of free will. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/122 "2005-03-14T19:29:30Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Everything happens for a reason. It’s all in God’s plan. God moves in mysterious ways. It’s all part of free will. > > Or something like that. Great Scott, you’re right. I’m now a True Believer. It was the “Or something like that” that clinched it. ---
**Author:** ![modular](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@modular](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/modular)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/123 "2005-03-14T19:29:40Z")
So…where did ‘God’ come from to create all this evolution or otherwise? If matter cannot be created or destroyed…then something was here before? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/124 "2005-03-14T19:41:37Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Great Scott, you’re right. I’m now a True Believer. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/125 "2005-03-14T19:55:56Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > For Christians who believe that evolution was a process invented by, or begun by, or guided by God: We’re pretty sure that evolution doesn’t work “towards” a specific goal, and we know that there were plenty of false starts and dead-end paths. > > What’s up with that? Was He waiting specifically for humans to arrive by chance, or would any reasonably intelligent species that arrived by chance be good enough? How was He guaranteed that such a species would be an inevitable result? Did He guide evolution along, smiting various species along the way so as to achieve a more desired result? > > Why did He let dinosaurs reign for so long? Was he hoping that a self-reflective dinosaur would emerge, then hit the Smite button as soon as it was clear the such a critter would never come to be? > > I’d love to reconcile reigion with evolution, but this is my sticking point. There seems to be far too much randomness for there to be a guiding hand behind the whole thing. Well, speaking for myself, the way it works for me is that God came up with the whole idea, the concept, of “evolution”, right after He invented Life, The Universe, and Everything, and then He basically just let it run, intervening only at the crucial moment when it was time to give hominids “souls” (this would have been when they started burying their dead, instead of leaving the bodies of dead family members to be eaten by scavengers). And then I visualize it as much like the Sistine Chapel, with a big muscular hand reaching down and going BING!" at Mankind. I personally believe that given enough time, random mutations in amino acids could gradually make them transform themselves into bacteria. (And 4 billion years sure seems like enough time to me–I read that Galapagos finch book where they watched speciation take place from year to year, wet season to dry season, so if finches can speciate in just a few years, why not amino acids into bacteria in a few centuries?) I also believe that there would have been a LOT of steps along the way from “random assortment of amino acids” to “bacteria” to “algae” to “paramecia” to “rotifers” etc. (or however the sequence goes) that necessarily aren’t documented in the fossil record. So the bacteria and amino acids and algae and things don’t _need_ God to reach down and personally intervene every time it’s time for something to mutate to the Next Step Up in creation. All He had to do was set the whole thing in motion, do the Creation, lay down the basic ground rules, and then step back. I don’t even have any trouble believing that those early amino acids might have come in on a comet or something. All God had to do was come up with the _idea_ of Life, etc., the _idea_ that you could create a cosmos in which amino acids will hitchhike around on comets and eventually hit a planet and then Do Stuff that results in Life. To God time is meaningless, so it’s not a question of Him having to “wait around” for the dinosaurs to “get done” so He could create Mankind. God exists outside of time; C.S. Lewis said that time, for God, is a “boundless Now”. So for God, it’s amino acids on a comet AND dinosaurs AND Mankind, all at once. And since He knows everything, yes, He knew what kind of beings _homo sapiens_ would be when the first amino acids splashed down on the third rock from the sun, and since He exists outside of time, He knows how the story comes out at the same time He’s writing the first chapter. And the ability to do all this is what makes Him God. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/126 "2005-03-14T20:07:18Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > time for something to mutate to the Next Step Up in creation. nitpick question - Is there an “up” and “down” to evolution? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/127 "2005-03-14T20:47:38Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > nitpick question - Is there an “up” and “down” to evolution? Yep. From earthworms to eagles. 😉 Actually, while I still have many many reservations about reconciling God with Evolution, **DDG** ’s version is probably the only model I would come close to accepting. Either that, or the concept of a long-lived but very mortal god. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/128 "2005-03-14T20:49:17Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > nitpick question - Is there an “up” and “down” to evolution? Well, only the convention that humans are “better” or more important somehow than amoebas. 😃 I suppose you can look at all of evolution as “bush” evolution instead of “tree” evolution, with rotifers and giraffes and bacteria all equal, but I was taught in Sixth Grade Science Class that everything in Life is proceeding onwards and upwards to greater and higher things, and personally I prefer to think of _homo sapiens_, myself included (naturally), as the pinnacle of Creation and ruling species on Planet Earth. And yes I DO know how many species of insects there are thank you very much, and I don’t care. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/129 "2005-03-14T21:23:31Z")
> [@modular](#): > > So…where did ‘God’ come from to create all this evolution or otherwise? If matter cannot be created or destroyed…then something was here before? Who said God was matter? (Ancitipating your response) Who said God was energy? As the Supreme Being, God would be beyond matter or energy. God would be beyond the laws of physics. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/130 "2005-03-14T21:26:37Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > Well, only the convention that humans are “better” or more important somehow than amoebas. 😃 > > I suppose you can look at all of evolution as “bush” evolution instead of “tree” evolution, with rotifers and giraffes and bacteria all equal, but I was taught in Sixth Grade Science Class that everything in Life is proceeding onwards and upwards to greater and higher things, and personally I prefer to think of _homo sapiens_, myself included (naturally), as the pinnacle of Creation and ruling species on Planet Earth. > > And yes I DO know how many species of insects there are thank you very much, and I don’t care. 😛 Whether or not humans are the pinnacle of evolution is a matter of opinion as well as a completely different debate, as I’m sure you know. But if we were the ultimate beings, wouldn’t we be 300 feet tall, be able to survive for weeks in the desert or underwater, be covered in quills, have wings, and be able to get cats to bring us food? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/131 "2005-03-14T21:29:48Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Who said God was matter? (Ancitipating your response) Who said God was energy? As the Supreme Being, God would be beyond matter or energy. God would be beyond the laws of physics. Ah, but you failed to anticipate the next question: “Says who?” ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/132 "2005-03-14T22:26:58Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Do you mean to say that the extinction of the dinosaurs and the disappearance of Neanderthal were guided processes? In an indirect way, more that the fact that some species happened to develop in ways that allowed them to survive, when others didn’t. Some of the species that went extinct had more potential than the ones that survived at the time of the extinction. To my mind, it’s too convenient, and there are too many examples in many places you can look at throughout history to be just random events. To me, looking at a large section of the puzzle (because the “puzzle” of life/evolution is too big to see all at once) it seems as if there is something guiding the process. Maybe not to you, but to me, it’s as good an explanation as any. Certainly the idea is more logical than Norse myths. My belief in Science doesn’t mean I can’t also think that there are some shaping forces that I cannot fathom, but can sense when looking at history. (I’m Pagan btw.) Science does leave room for the unfathomed, and for me, events like that qaulify. Granted Science doesn’t like to focus on the unknown unless it’s trying to comprehend, but it still leaves room for things not yet understood. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/133 "2005-03-14T23:03:20Z")
Hmmm… I posted here earlier today, but now don’t see it… So here goes again. Thanks **Poly** and **Duck** for the replies. I grew up in a church that recited the Apostle’s Creed every Sunday. Just kinda hard to comprehend that in this age of schism and progress the mainstream Xian denoms might all still cling to the virgin birth. Live and learn. Btw, **Duck** , I read the very page you cite and didn’t see the reference! :smack: There is none so blind as he who will not see. Thanks again, guys. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/134 "2005-03-14T23:04:10Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Whether or not humans are the pinnacle of evolution is a matter of opinion as well as a completely different debate, as I’m sure you know. > > But if we were the ultimate beings, wouldn’t we be 300 feet tall, be able to survive for weeks in the desert or underwater, be covered in quills, have wings, and be able to get cats to bring us food? _snerk_ Yep. 😃 But that was kinda my point about the insects–whenever somebody announces, “Humans are the dominant species on Planet Earth”, somebody _else_ immediately goes, “Oh, yeah? Well, there are umpty-leven-thousand-million species of _bugs_, what about THEM, huh, huh?” So I KNOW about the bugs. 😃 I don’t seriously, personally, skeptically believe that there’s any particular earthly species that’s the “pinnacle of evolution”. Except for cockroaches. Now, THERE you have the Masters of the Universe… ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/135 "2005-03-14T23:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Thanks again, guys. You’re welcome. 🙂 Ya know, just because you may hear clergymen and parishioners voicing a disagreement with a mainstream denomination’s doctrine without the denomination dragging them out in the parking lot and burning them at the stake as heretics doesn’t mean that the denomination has abandoned that doctrine. It just means that we don’t burn heretics at the stake anymore. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/136 "2005-03-15T00:51:20Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Yep. From earthworms to eagles. 😉 > > Actually, while I still have many many reservations about reconciling God with Evolution, **DDG** ’s version is probably the only model I would come close to accepting. > > Either that, or the concept of a long-lived but very mortal god. Well, earthworms do turn the soil over and help to keep it fertile so that vegetation grows well. And all animal life is ultimately dependent on vegetation for survival. Eagles are sometimes scavengers (and sometimes thieves from other birds) and help clean up, but bacteria also do this job. “Up” and “down”, “more” or “less” valuable are so loaded with human values that I have a hard time agreeing that eagles are “up” and earthworms are “down.” And of course God pronounced \* all\* of creation good and I don’t think he said that mankind was better that the rest, just the master of all. And, after all, someone has to be the boss. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/137 "2005-03-15T01:03:24Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > Well, only the convention that humans are “better” or more important somehow than amoebas. 😃 Hmmmm. Aren’t our guts filled with beneficial bacteria without which we would synthesize some vitamins, break down fiber and in general have poor digestion? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/138 "2005-03-15T01:25:39Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > I don’t seriously, personally, skeptically believe that there’s any particular earthly species that’s the “pinnacle of evolution”. Evolution isn’t going anywhere. And I mean that in both senses. 😉 Christianity has survived worse than the threat of evolutionary theory. The question is, can human evolution survive Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/139 "2005-03-15T01:35:05Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > _snerk_ Yep. 😃 > > But that was kinda my point about the insects–whenever somebody announces, “Humans are the dominant species on Planet Earth”, somebody _else_ immediately goes, “Oh, yeah? Well, there are umpty-leven-thousand-million species of _bugs_, what about THEM, huh, huh?” Ah, [J. B. Haldane,](http://inkfinger.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/02/inordinate_fond.html) thou art remembered. ---
**Author:** ![Nolies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/45deac/32.png) [@Nolies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nolies)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885/140 "2005-03-15T05:46:50Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > I count four people right off the bat who have told you that the basic premise of Christianity is not “creation”. > > So I’ll guess I’ll make five. > > Creation is not the most basic premise of Christianity. If that were true, then Christianity would be no different from any other religion that claims that their god (by whatever name) created humans. > > The basic premise of Christianity–the thing that distinguishes it from all other religions–is its claim that its god considered that the humans he had created to have fellowship with him had chosen this thing called “sin” (the wages of which unfortunately turned out to be “death”) that meant that they couldn’t fellowship with him after all, him being sinless and all, so in order to make a path back to himself, he incarnated himself as a human, came to earth to die sacrificially in the place of those sinful humans so that they might ask his forgiveness of their sin through the atoning blood that he himself shed, and have fellowship with him after all. > > Plus have eternal life. > > _That’s_ Christianity. DDG, Now you’re in this thread saying drivel trying to justify your faith in evolution, Creation is essential to understanding Christianity, and it is the Death penalty that is at the heart of the Gospel. If God never **created** man with free will, he would have never had to pay the penalty to reconcile his **creation** to himself. Creation keeps coming back up, read that is all through the new testament. BTW. How about that God who knows everything even before it happens 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-christians-believe-in-evolution/293885.md?page=8)