# How can Democrats justify keeping DC closed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796 "2013-10-09T18:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/41 "2013-10-09T22:16:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I guess this is the level of thought of the average Democratic voter. Oh well, says I. The only answer I’m getting out of this thread is “even though opening D.C. doesn’t open a single Federal agency shuttered by the shutdown and does not affect the shutdown negotiations at all, and even though we’ve already funded military paychecks anyway which are totally Federal, we are throwing logic to the wind and will refuse to let D.C. use its own tax dollars because we think that’s going to make the congressman from the Cincinnati suburbs feel like he needs to end the shutdown sooner.” Them’s the rules. Republicans want to stuff shut down, well then, shut stuff down. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/42 "2013-10-09T22:35:29Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What department actually cuts the checks that get sent to Congressmen? Wouldn’t it be a part of the Executive branch? If so, couldn’t the President cut congressional pay until they got their act together? It is unconstitutional to withhold the pay of members of Congress. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Legislation isn’t proof of caring about something. That’s just stupid. Republicans have proposed a dozen or more rifle-shot bills on traditional Republican priorities… plus DC. There is a reason why the DC bill was proposed, which means Republicans care for some reason. I just don’t know what the reason is with any certainty, so you and I can speculate on the reasons. To say that Republicans proposed a bill to help DC, and that they don’t care about that bill, is not credible on its face. If they didn’t care, they wouldn’t propose the bill. > [@](#): > > And none of these arguments apply to D.C., which isn’t one of the Federal agencies/departments you go on to rattle off. Yes, DC is different. There are differences between every agency and office that is closed. It doesn’t matter, because the Republican strategy is the same: fund a handful of things to take the political heat off of them, and leave the rest of government fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/43 "2013-10-09T22:39:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But this logic does not extend to D.C. If you show a bunch of pictures of D.C. school kids not going to school or other random stuff, Republicans like me are going to say: Do you really think what “Republicans like you” think is an important factor in the Democrat’s political calculations? They aren’t trying to change your mind, they’re trying to change the minds of the independent middle, and to a lesser extent, shore up support among their own base. I don’t think changing the minds of far-right partisans is really part of their agenda right now. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/44 "2013-10-09T22:39:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t agree with that characterization. The baseline here is a continuing resolution set at Republican spending priorities. If Republicans are “getting nothing” then so are Democrats. If anything, Republicans are getting something and Democrats are getting nothing. The baseline is no changes to ACA. > [@](#): > > But the point is this: is it a good or bad custom that we don’t allow one chamber to effectively repeal a law by refusing to fund it? If it’s a good custom, we should keep it and be alarmed by this tactic. If it’s a bad custom, then obviously we shouldn’t care if it is violated. I think it’s a good custom and it’s a shame to have it violated. But it’s a mistake to look at it in isolation. The parties have been escalating adversarial tactics for several decades. (When Bork and Tower were rejected by the Senate, that was a violation of custom too. And so on.) > [@](#): > > All three of Bush’s tax cuts, which were the centerpiece of his domestic legislative agenda, were passed through reconciliation. Which is a reaction to breaking customs surrounding the filibuster, and on and on. I believe prior to the ACA it was used primarily for budget matters. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/45 "2013-10-09T22:45:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, DC is different. There are differences between every agency and office that is closed. It doesn’t matter, because the Republican strategy is the same: fund a handful of things to take the political heat off of them, and leave the rest of government fucked. Washington, D.C. is a city. It is not an agency or an office. You seem almost afraid to acknowledge it is not an agency or office of the Federal government. Despite actually living there, very strange. In any case, look at a listing of all the Cabinet Officers and all the other executive officers who report to the President, and look at all of the agencies, bureaus and etc that report up through them. You will not find “City Government of Washington D.C.” as one of those agencies, bureaus or offices. So not only is it different from “other” agencies and offices, unlike agencies and offices it is also **different from all agencies in offices in that it is not one of those things**. It’s like saying, “a squid is different from a mammal just like each mammal is different from each other.” But failing to recognize it’s kind of a big difference that the squid is not a mammal at all. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/46 "2013-10-09T22:46:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you really think what “Republicans like you” think is an important factor in the Democrat’s political calculations? They aren’t trying to change your mind, they’re trying to change the minds of the independent middle, and to a lesser extent, shore up support among their own base. I don’t think changing the minds of far-right partisans is really part of their agenda right now. This is also, again, an example of the mistake the Democrats are making. The President thinks the shutdown is a political battle to be won, I see little evidence that it is. By and large the GOP House majority is pretty set, aided in party by gerrymandering. That means it doesn’t even matter what the “undecided middle” thinks, because there are members of the party in the House who don’t care. They aren’t facing a serious election challenge so they **do not care** about the national polling data. That’s why I have less optimism about this shutdown than I normally would, the Republicans driving this thing are supported by constituents that really aren’t going to vote them out of office over a government shut down. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/47 "2013-10-09T22:50:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The baseline is no changes to ACA. Ok. Then I disagree with your characterization of the Democrats position as being unwilling to accept changes. They have already accepted one significant change to the ACA. What they are not willing to do is negotiate where what the GOP offers is that the they will accept _their own proposed funding levels_ in exchange for changes while the government is shutdown. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think it’s a good custom and it’s a shame to have it violated. But it’s a mistake to look at it in isolation. The parties have been escalating adversarial tactics for several decades. (When Bork and Tower were rejected by the Senate, that was a violation of custom too. And so on.) I agree that is all part of the same arms race. But I don’t think that stops us from criticizing this move in the race, along with the last one, and the next one. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe prior to the ACA it was used primarily for budget matters. As it was here, which is required by the rule. What was passed through reconciliation was not the ACA, but was a separate bill involving primarily budgetary matters concerning the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/48 "2013-10-09T22:56:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again, the biggest mistake Democrats are making is assuming Republicans are running off of the bicoastal/national media spin on things. Republicans report to voters in the suburbs of big cities or in rural areas. Those people don’t care what goes on in D.C. Or, they’re like me and recognize D.C. is a shit hole full of welfare cases and effete yuppies with horrible education and city government and they think it deserves every bad thing that happens to it [which it does.] OK, agreed. So given that, why do you think the Republicans want to piecemeal fund DC? You somehow seem to think funding DC is a loser for Republicans, and accepting special funding for DC is a winner for Democrats. So why would the Republicans give the Democrats this gift? Your notion that the Democrats would gladly fund the EPA is also nonsense. Of course they wouldn’t. If we fund everything popular in a piecemeal fashion then the shutdown will never end. If we really want to cut the budget of the Park Service, then let’s pass a budget that cuts the funding of the Park Service. It makes no sense to pass a budget that funds the Park Service, then refuse to allow that budget to be spent. If the government bureaucrats and pencil-pushers in Washington are so unpopular then why can’t the Republicans pass a budget that fires them? The answer is that the Republicans aren’t offering to fund DC because they want to give the Democrats a gift. They are offering to fund DC because having trash littering the streets of the nation’s capitol looks bad, and reminds voters that this is all the fault of the Republicans. They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to help the Democrats and the beleaguered negro citizens of DC, they are doing it to help themselves. It is very difficult for me to understand why you can’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/49 "2013-10-09T22:58:37Z")
The city of Washington or the District of Columbia might not be an “agency, bureau, or office”, but it is part of the federal government. If the government shuts down, all of its parts shut down, whether they be “agencies” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/50 "2013-10-09T23:27:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Washington, D.C. is a city. It is not an agency or an office. You seem almost afraid to acknowledge it is not an agency or office of the Federal government. Despite actually living there, very strange. In any case, look at a listing of all the Cabinet Officers and all the other executive officers who report to the President, and look at all of the agencies, bureaus and etc that report up through them. > > You will not find “City Government of Washington D.C.” as one of those agencies, bureaus or offices. So not only is it different from “other” agencies and offices, unlike agencies and offices it is also **different from all agencies in offices in that it is not one of those things**. > > It’s like saying, “a squid is different from a mammal just like each mammal is different from each other.” But failing to recognize it’s kind of a big difference that the squid is not a mammal at all. Re-read my post #20. I’ve already covered my thoughts on DC’s status within Federal spending bills. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/51 "2013-10-10T00:14:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > OK, agreed. So given that, why do you think the Republicans want to piecemeal fund DC? You somehow seem to think funding DC is a loser for Republicans, and accepting special funding for DC is a winner for Democrats. > > So why would the Republicans give the Democrats this gift? Your notion that the Democrats would gladly fund the EPA is also nonsense. Of course they wouldn’t. The Democrats would gladly fund the EPA–if it did not mean backing off their proclamation of not negotiating with Boehner no matter what, which includes negotiating on a piecemeal phase-in of funding. Now, the reason the majority of the piece-meal funding bills were rejected by the Senate is they targeted all the really public, embarrassing aspects of the shutdown and even more importantly–piece-meal funding would eventually leave some things unfunded that the Democrats really want funded and no incentive for the Republicans to fund them ever. However, in a neutral field without those concerns, of course the Democrats would want the EPA and all of their other pet agencies reopened. The Senate and the Democrats wouldn’t want those things ended, because they want a CR, and their opinion is they can’t get the CR they want without the spectacle of the shutdown. I did not say giving D.C. the ability to spend its own money would be a “winner for Republicans.” I think it is neutral for Republicans, it doesn’t hurt them, it doesn’t help them. I think it’s a win for Democrats because it gives them something they _should_ want, which is 600,000+ of their constituents local government services, which could go away once D.C.'s emergency fund runs dry. It also doesn’t impact their larger position, because it is not a Federal agency or department, but instead a constitutional quirk in which there is a municipality whose operations require some degree of congressional oversight. Now, does it really “help” the Democrats? Not really, I don’t think it politically helps the Democrats to restore D.C.'s ability to spend its own tax revenue, but since most of D.C. are their party mates my assumption is they’d want to do it for benevolent reasons. As to why the Republicans did it? I don’t know, I suspect in the frenzy of funding stuff through piece-meal CRs they perhaps threw it in as a bone to the Democrats in hopes it might spur negotiations on other issues. But the bone is thrown, accepting it requires no further capitulation since the House can’t unpass a bill. > [@](#): > > If we fund everything popular in a piecemeal fashion then the shutdown will never end. If we really want to cut the budget of the Park Service, then let’s pass a budget that cuts the funding of the Park Service. It makes no sense to pass a budget that funds the Park Service, then refuse to allow that budget to be spent. If the government bureaucrats and pencil-pushers in Washington are so unpopular then why can’t the Republicans pass a budget that fires them? Right, except we aren’t funding D.C. We’re giving D.C. permission to spend its own money, it’s not really the same. It’s also preserving the functioning of _local_ government for an important region of the United States. This shutdown game is “supposed” to be the Federal government is (kinda sorta but not really) shutdown, it doesn’t make sense to link a single municipality to that the way no other municipality is. > [@](#): > > The answer is that the Republicans aren’t offering to fund DC because they want to give the Democrats a gift. They are offering to fund DC because having trash littering the streets of the nation’s capitol looks bad, and reminds voters that this is all the fault of the Republicans. They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to help the Democrats and the beleaguered negro citizens of DC, they are doing it to help themselves. D.C. is a shit hole anyway, but it’s going to be a shit hole with a functioning government versus a shit hole without a functioning government. When people visit D.C. they know to stay clear of the areas where all the poor blacks and criminals live anyway, which are the areas that will be the worst without any government at all. Instead, people who visit D.C. are going to see the national monuments, and allowing D.C. to spend its own money does not restore access to those. So the Democrats can continue their farcical play of shutting down monuments that require more resources to circle in barriers than they do to leave unattended even if they agree to let D.C. use its own revenue. > [@](#): > > It is very difficult for me to understand why you can’t see that. Because D.C. isn’t part of the Federal shutdown, and no part of the Federal shut down ends just because you let D.C. spend its own tax revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/52 "2013-10-10T00:17:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The city of Washington or the District of Columbia might not be an “agency, bureau, or office”, but it is part of the federal government. If the government shuts down, all of its parts shut down, whether they be “agencies” or not. No that’s not actually true. Most of the actual Federal government has remained open. The vast majority in fact, even a majority of the “non-essential” employees are actually back at work now after the recent recall of 350,000 DoD civilian employees. The city of Washington is not a part of the Federal government anymore than a U.S. Territory is part of the Federal government. “Part of” and “overseen/administered by” are different things. But aside from being wrong about whether or not the city of Washington is part of the Federal government, and being wrong about the entire government shutting down, this was an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/53 "2013-10-10T00:22:50Z")
And to be equally pedantic, Washington D.C. as a municipality isn’t shutdown either. Shall we all use Fox News “slimdown” terminology to satisfy you, **Martin Hyde**? ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/54 "2013-10-10T00:55:52Z")
**Martin** , you keep writing that the Republicans driving the shutdown don’t need to fear reelection. You’re wrong. They need to be terrified about reelection. Their constituents are eager to kick them to the curb if they aren’t convinced their representatives are far enough to the right. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/55 "2013-10-10T01:01:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > D.C. is a shit hole anyway, but it’s going to be a shit hole with a functioning government versus a shit hole without a functioning government. When people visit D.C. they know to stay clear of the areas where all the poor blacks and criminals live anyway, which are the areas that will be the worst without any government at all. Excuse me, could you repost your sentiments here without the vile racist tropes? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/56 "2013-10-10T01:57:24Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is also, again, an example of the mistake the Democrats are making. Maybe yes, maybe no, but that doesn’t change the fact that how you, and how most Republicans, feel about DC has no bearing on Democratic strategy. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/57 "2013-10-10T02:12:42Z")
IMO the Dems are tired of Reps pulling stupid stunts and then passing tiny little bills that remove all the bad consequences for themselves. An example was the sequester, quickly followed by refunding the TSA so Congressmen didn’t have to stand in longer lines at airports. Probably lots of congressmen live in DC. Certainly all of them will be inconvenienced if traffic is worse and services are reduced in DC. Dems as well as Reps, which makes me OK with it. I’m sorry for the innocent DC civilians who are affected, but I’m sorry that the whole country, indeed the whole world, has to put up with this Republican shit. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/58 "2013-10-10T03:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Because D.C. isn’t part of the Federal shutdown, and no part of the Federal shut down ends just because you let D.C. spend its own tax revenue. What? Then there’s no debate, because the Democrats have nothing to justify. DC is not part of the federal shutdown, so the Dems can’t have done anything one way or the other. This whole thread can be summarized as follows: OP: I don’t understand the Dems position re: DC and the shutdown. Followed by 12 patient posts explaining the Dems position re DC and the shutdown. OP: I don’t understand the Dems position re DC and the shutdown. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/59 "2013-10-10T04:57:49Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > IMO the Dems are tired of Reps pulling stupid stunts and then passing tiny little bills that remove all the bad consequences for themselves. An example was the sequester, quickly followed by refunding the TSA so Congressmen didn’t have to stand in longer lines at airports. > > Probably lots of congressmen live in DC. Certainly all of them will be inconvenienced if traffic is worse and services are reduced in DC. Dems as well as Reps, which makes me OK with it. I’m sorry for the innocent DC civilians who are affected, but I’m sorry that the whole country, indeed the whole world, has to put up with this Republican shit. Let’s not forget that the congressional gym is open as an essential service but the one used by staffers is closed… ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/60 "2013-10-10T06:13:21Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Let’s not forget that the congressional gym is open as an essential service but the one used by staffers is closed… Wait, the STAFFERS have their own gym??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796.md?page=4)