# How can Democrats justify keeping DC closed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796 "2013-10-09T18:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/61 "2013-10-10T11:11:23Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Wait, the STAFFERS have their own gym??? In the basement of the Rayburn building. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/62 "2013-10-10T12:25:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Let’s stop with the name calling, gentlemen. That’s getting close to breaking the rules. > > No warning issued. > > “Harry Reid”, “John Boehner” _shudder_ At long last, have you no decency? > > Belgium. Thanks. Before you know it, “Ted Cruz” could be invoked. This is _not_ the Pit! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/63 "2013-10-10T12:43:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Maybe yes, maybe no, but that doesn’t change the fact that how you, and how most Republicans, feel about DC has no bearing on Democratic strategy. I wouldn’t expect it to, but since letting D.C. spend its own revenue doesn’t really impact the political strategic situation at all it just seems like a thing called “good government.” That’s why I’m continually confused as to why the Democrats are keeping it closed. I’m not espousing some crazy theory here, Democratic Mayor of Washington got on Reid on the Capitol steps about this–his argument, and one I support 100%, is that “we are not a Federal department.” They aren’t, and he’s right. I’m sure as a good partisan Democrat Mayor Gray is 100% against the piecemeal reopening of various _Federal departments_, but (and I recognize his bias) he is 100% factually correct that his city **is not one of those departments** , and reopening it does nothing to alter the Democrats position on piecemeal departmental openings. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Excuse me, could you repost your sentiments here without the vile racist tropes? Nothing at all racist in my post. Tourists, especially from the rest of America, intrinsically link black neighborhoods in big cities they are visiting with “crime and danger” and steer away from them. Unfortunately because of the mismanagement of most major American cities, most high minority neighborhoods are indeed where most of the crime occurs–but that doesn’t justify the “purse clutching” response middle class tourists have when they realize they’ve made a wrong turn and gone down into a majority-black neighborhood. I’m talking about the behavior of people, I’m not saying it is correct or anything, but to deny it is asinine. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > IMO the Dems are tired of Reps pulling stupid stunts and then passing tiny little bills that remove all the bad consequences for themselves. An example was the sequester, quickly followed by refunding the TSA so Congressmen didn’t have to stand in longer lines at airports. > > Probably lots of congressmen live in DC. Certainly all of them will be inconvenienced if traffic is worse and services are reduced in DC. Dems as well as Reps, which makes me OK with it. I’m sorry for the innocent DC civilians who are affected, but I’m sorry that the whole country, indeed the whole world, has to put up with this Republican shit. This is probably the first argument that could potential explain it in a logical way to me. I believe almost every Congressman maintains at least some form of residence either in D.C. itself or very near D.C. So perhaps the Democrats know that when the city’s emergency funds run out and the city gets even shittier than usual, the Republican Congressmen will have to put up with the inconveniences just like anyone else. Still seems a very petty and unnecessary reason for the Democrats to hold a municipal government hostage when all the other State & municipal governments operate as normally throughout the rest of the country. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And to be equally pedantic, Washington D.C. as a municipality isn’t shutdown either. Shall we all use Fox News “slimdown” terminology to satisfy you, **Martin Hyde**? I’m not being pedantic, the vast majority of the Federal government is not shutdown at all. D.C. isn’t shutdown either, but that’s _only because_ it has an emergency fund it is running operations with, D.C. will face a very serious shutdown when that fund is emptied. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/64 "2013-10-10T19:30:20Z")
Interesting update, so the President has now ordered the Interior Secretary to review State requests to reopen national parks in circumstances where the State governments are willing to fund their operations during the shutdown. If she approves these requests, these national parks can reopen while the rest of the shutdown continues. So, letting States (and it’s Utah, South Dakota, Arizona and Colorado primarily right now) reopen national parks as long as they foot the bill is apparently fine to this President and is not “breaking the line” of “no piecemeal reopening.” But letting D.C. use **its own money** to run city services is a no go. I can’t wait to see the pretzels the Democrats here will try to twist themselves in to explain this hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/65 "2013-10-10T19:50:55Z")
Despite your partisan insults that Democrats are going to rush to defend everything the President does – which is, frankly, a dumb claim given how much criticism Obama has received on this liberal-leaning board on topics like privacy, counter-terrorism, and giving up too much ground on his campaign promise to increase taxes on the very wealthy – I think that asking state to fund National Parks is wrong. Unless there’s some provision of law I don’t know about, in general it is illegal for the Federal government to accept donations for things it is responsible for paying for. Just like how Federal workers can’t volunteer to go to work without pay, I think it should be illegal for states, cities, corporations, or individuals to use their own money to do inherently governmental things, including running National Parks. Would you like some honey mustard with that pretzel? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/66 "2013-10-10T20:03:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Despite your partisan insults that Democrats are going to rush to defend everything the President does – which is, frankly, a dumb claim given how much criticism Obama has received on this liberal-leaning board on topics like privacy, counter-terrorism, and giving up too much ground on his campaign promise to increase taxes on the very wealthy – I think that asking state to fund National Parks is wrong. Bravo, I am impressed that you are willing to disagree with the President on at least one aspect of how he’s handled the shutdown. > [@](#): > > Unless there’s some provision of law I don’t know about, in general it is illegal for the Federal government to accept donations for things it is responsible for paying for. Just like how Federal workers can’t volunteer to go to work without pay, **I think it should be illegal for states, cities, corporations, or individuals to use their own money to do inherently governmental things, including running National Parks.** I’m assuming you mean to say it should be illegal for those entities to use their own money to do _Federal_ government things, right? It wouldn’t make so much sense otherwise. What is your opinion on the Fisher House charity taking up the paying of the special $100,000 death payment that the military has had in place for awhile now? [This is a payment that families of a soldier killed in action receive within 36 hours of his/her death. It is in addition to the military provided funerals and any ordinary death benefit.] Fisher House is going to be reimbursed for it once the shutdown is over, if that makes any difference. > [@](#): > > Would you like some honey mustard with that pretzel? That is my favorite pretzel accompaniment… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/67 "2013-10-10T20:44:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Bravo, I am impressed that you are willing to disagree with the President on at least one aspect of how he’s handled the shutdown. If you hadn’t held the preconceived notion that anyone who disagrees with you is an Obamabot, there would be no need to be surprised or impressed at all. I think you’ve made an error in judgment on that count. > [@](#): > > I’m assuming you mean to say it should be illegal for those entities to use their own money to do _Federal_ government things, right? It wouldn’t make so much sense otherwise. Yes, you got it – I phrased that poorly. > [@](#): > > What is your opinion on the Fisher House charity taking up the paying of the special $100,000 death payment that the military has had in place for awhile now? I don’t see how that’s permissible, either. I readily admit I may not be aware of the legal authority being used, and I’m open to correction. If anything, this whole mess highlights the errors inherent in the Republicans’ attempt to fund piecemeal bits of the government: the House writes and passes a bill that provides for “pay and allowances” for members of the military, plus civilian and contract workers supporting them. They obviously failed to understand that a death gratuity to a surviving spouse isn’t pay, it isn’t an allowance, and it isn’t to members of the military, civilians, or contractors. Had there been a non-piecemeal CR in place, this would not be a crisis, nor would the DC budget impasse, nor would the National Park crisis, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/68 "2013-10-10T20:45:14Z")
How is the government of the federal district, provided for in the Constitution and always entirely under federal authority (only some of which, in recent decades, has been operationally devolved to locally-elected officials, under a revocable act of Congress), _not_ a federal agency? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/69 "2013-10-11T10:32:34Z")
They keep selling is the idea that we’d be better off without a pesky government cramping our style. But they know that images of garbage on the street as a whole city grinds to a halt will make the whole idea seem less glamourous. As a DC resident, I am more than happy to serve as an object lesson in how destructive the bill of goods they are selling is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/70 "2013-10-12T04:41:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Except, as the mayor of D.C. has said, D.C. is a city, it isn’t a department of the Federal government. The congress approved on 9/30 a bill guaranteeing the military would continue to get paid as normal during any shutdown. I’m not saying we should open up a bunch of stuff, but D.C. shouldn’t be held hostage like this. > > I don’t see how it undermines the Democrats political position to let DC spend _its own tax revenue_. Especially since voters in D.C. already vote Democrat, there aren’t even votes to be gained in the “blame game” by making D.C. suffer, it frankly makes no sense. > > In fact, many of the Federal agencies that collect fees have been permitted to keep their services open that use fees to operate. I don’t see how DC is any different. Have the Republicans proposed letting DC do this permanently or just this one time? AFAICT, Federal agencies are not kept open based on their fee receiving status. ---
**Author:** ![Mrmanface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mrmanface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrmanface)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/71 "2013-10-12T07:15:05Z")
I don’t know, the system is clearly faulty as such deadlocks should clearly result in the dissolution of both houses and fresh elections. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/72 "2013-10-12T07:29:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And that’s what I get, that’s why the Democrats are smart _not_ to open one or two Federal agency here or there. The Republicans tried to let the national parks reopen for example, and tactically, it was smart for the Democrats to say no. The national parks being closed genuinely pisses off **Republican** voters. > > But this logic does not extend to D.C. If you show a bunch of pictures of D.C. school kids not going to school or other random stuff, Republicans like me are going to say: > > 1. Those kids were lost causes anyway, they don’t need school. They’re just going to join a gang or work at McDonald’s and have 12 kids and live on SNAP benefits and disability the rest of their life. > > 2. Even if they weren’t, being in D.C. public schools isn’t really much better than sitting at home doing nothing. Bizarre. Republicans like you seem have a despicable attitude and you’re advising we must relate to you in terms you’ll understand. Not with compassion, but with our own savage strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/73 "2013-10-12T13:39:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > AFAICT, Federal agencies are not kept open based on their fee receiving status. It’s a little complex what agencies are open and which are not. But many of the parts of government that collect fees have remained open. One of the most prominent are the parts of CIS that process immigration forms. Those forms cost like $800, and the CIS continues to process them because it is a “fee funded service”, same with passport issuance. There is a difference between an agency that “receives fees” and “fee funded services.” Fee funded services are statutorily set up with the understanding that the fees pay for the service so that the service’s operating budget is derived from those fees and not from tax revenue. [With the understanding the general revenue would keep the service open if it became unprofitable.] But some agencies collect fees that just go to general revenue and get appropriate like everything else, so those agency’s while they collect fees, are not “self funded” by those fees under the statutes governing those agencies. Those agencies thus might collect fees and still be closed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/74 "2013-10-13T21:42:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s a little complex what agencies are open and which are not. But many of the parts of government that collect fees have remained open. One of the most prominent are the parts of CIS that process immigration forms. Those forms cost like $800, and the CIS continues to process them because it is a “fee funded service”, same with passport issuance. > > There is a difference between an agency that “receives fees” and “fee funded services.” Fee funded services are statutorily set up with the understanding that the fees pay for the service so that the service’s operating budget is derived from those fees and not from tax revenue. [With the understanding the general revenue would keep the service open if it became unprofitable.] But some agencies collect fees that just go to general revenue and get appropriate like everything else, so those agency’s while they collect fees, are not “self funded” by those fees under the statutes governing those agencies. Those agencies thus might collect fees and still be closed. OK, umm maybe. Do you have a link that says that the CIS and passport folks get to keep the money they generate? I’m pretty sure that the SEC is more than self sufficient as is the rulings division of the IRS. In fact the pay at the SEC was increased at the behest of Wall Street when they agreed to higher fees to get better service. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/75 "2013-10-16T11:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **Martin Hyde** (from the OP): I understand the politics here, and I don’t want to get into a discussion of who is in the right or the wrong about the shutdown. > [@](#): > > If you show a bunch of pictures of D.C. school kids not going to school or other random stuff, **Republicans like me are going to say** (bold type added): > > 1. Those kids were lost causes anyway, they don’t need school. They’re just going to join a gang or work at McDonald’s and have 12 kids and live on SNAP benefits and disability the rest of their life. > > 2. Even if they weren’t, being in D.C. public schools isn’t really much better than sitting at home doing nothing. > [@](#): > > Nothing at all racist in my post. Your words indicate a blindness that is inexcusable. I would love to see those schools reopened! > [@](#): > > …beleaguered negro citizens… Do you know these “beleaguered negro citizens” personally? Your description makes all of them seem alike and totally without hope, dignity, or intelligence. I have been in that section of Washington. It’s up behind the Capitol. That area didn’t seem as deprived as the schools I taught in. Many of my students lived in the projects. They would have loved one of those brownstones. I once heard about an African-American child who had to live for a while on food stamps in another state. He became the President of the United States. You just never know. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/76 "2013-10-18T12:28:46Z")
Washington, D.C. schools closed only on October 18. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/77 "2013-10-18T13:06:50Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Washington, D.C. schools closed only on October 18. ??? That’s news to me. My kid went to school this morning. EDIT- My kid goes to a charter school which is funded by the DC government, but is not a part of DCPS. I just checked the DCPS calendar, today is a professional development day. My son’s school did that on Monday. **Martin Hyde** , If Republicans really want to avoid DC having to suffer when they have a fit and shutdown the government, maybe they should have passed the [District of Columbia Budget Autonomy Act.](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr345/text) As screwed as as the District may be in some ways, their finances are in much better shape than most places. DC had a [$417 million](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/mike-debonis/wp/2013/01/29/gray-417-million-d-c-surplus-will-stay-in-bank/) **surplus** which the District decided to bank rather than spend leaving the city with a $1.5 billion reserve. Overall, the District is undergoing a renaissance. The population is growing and neighborhoods that were abandoned have come back or are in the process of coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/78 "2013-10-18T20:42:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, umm maybe. Do you have a link that says that the CIS and passport folks get to keep the money they generate? I never said they get to “keep” the money they make. But I know that the Bureau of Consular Affairs (State Department Bureau that provides passports) does not operate off of appropriated funds, which means it would not be affected by a shutdown. It operates off of the fees it charges. Now, whether or not it gets to “keep” that money I don’t know. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the SEC is more than self sufficient as is the rulings division of the IRS. In fact the pay at the SEC was increased at the behest of Wall Street when they agreed to higher fees to get better service. And the SEC also doesn’t operate off of appropriated funds, making it similar to the Bureau of Consular Affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796/79 "2013-10-20T19:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **Caffeine Addict** :…EDIT- My kid goes to a charter school which is funded by the DC government, but is not a part of DCPS. I just checked the DCPS calendar, today is a professional development day. My son’s school did that on Monday. “Nuff said.” Thanks for the explanation. How are charter schools working out in D.C.? I’ve lately been of two minds about charter schools. Would love to know that they are a good solution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-democrats-justify-keeping-dc-closed/670796.md?page=3)